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It was a beautiful autumn day in the Delaware Valley – until some thugs on the payroll of the Plymouth, PA police department assaulted me and terrorized my son just steps from my home. How did this happen? On this warm fall day I took my little one out for some needed exercise in the nearby park, to see the falling leaves and let him win foot races in classic turtle-and-hare style. I did all this while securely carrying a holstered firearm on my hip because my son is simply too precious to put at risk.
Unwilling to Prove He is a Cop
Back on the street, outside the park, just steps from our home, a dark blue crown victoria pulled up behind me and asked if we could talk. I asked about what? He said I was carrying a gun. I said that open carry is legal in Pennsylvania. He claimed he was a cop so I asked for badge, badge number and bond number but he did not comply except for a brief glance at the badge on his belt.
Am I Legally Required to Provide Identication?
He asked if I had ID and I asked him if I was legally required to give it. He said it would make it easier or some other nonsense so I did not give it. Looking back, had I reached for it I might be in jail or worse right now since my pistol was on the same side as my wallet. Later he claimed that I refused to cooperate in his “investigation” and when I denied it he claimed I was lying.
Cuffed Before I Knew it Without Justification
My son immediately sensed that something was very wrong and hugged my right leg. I felt threatened by the way the man moved, too. I comforted him with my right arm which made this guy very nervous. He demanded I stop moving my hands. I put them up. I had not moved my hand towards any weapon or even thought about defending myself against the person. I told him I was peaceful and was not aggressive. But before I knew it he had my hands cuffed behind my back. He took my firearm out of the active retention holster, removed a pocket knife that was clipped onto a pocket and, amazingly, reached into a closed cargo pants pocket and removed my wallet!
I Do Not Consent
I immediately made it clear that I did not consent to any searches and informed him that he was violating my fourth amendment rights. He chuckled. I demanded his identification again. I told him I had to verify he was really a cop. But he did not comply. I still can not believe he so blithely searched me like that.
Six Thugs for a Peaceful Dad
In addition to Mark Anthony Lacy (badge number 142, “Juvenile Detective”, pictured above), the one who cuffed me, five other cops showed up. That’s a total of six cops who wasted at least 30-45 minutes on this. There was O’Brien (badge number 137 I think) in a white shirt (a “lieutenant”), Bolinsky, Zinni, another one in plain clothes who showed no evidence of being a cop and a portly one who never got out of his car. When I mentioned near the end how wasteful this was, they told me not to worry about how much it cost because I don’t reside in their jurisdiction anyway.
There were ongoing attempts to verbally intimidate me, primarily by Bolinsky. He told me to shut up and stop talking several times. In response to which I asked if he was also violating my first amendment right as well as my fourth. I addressed them as “sir” and “gentleman”. I was not rude. I did not blabber but I did take advantage of their pauses in speaking and their questions and statements to refute their weak justifications, guilt trips and other bullshit.
It’s About Doing What’s Right
After demanding they return my wallet and cease violating me, O’Brien said it sounded like I had good basis for a lawsuit and lots of damages. Several of them laughed because they know the courts are part of their same gang. But I said, it’s not about lawsuits. It’s about doing the right thing. Are you peace officers or law enforcement officers? Right now, you’re a law enforcement officers and you’re hassling me for nothing.
NOT Peace Officers
Later one tried to twist my words into support for LEOs in general saying I called them peace officers. I said, I would have complete respect for you if you were peace officers (without the state monopoly, which I left out) but right now you are aggressing against me and you are not acting as peace officers.
I Might be a Child Kidnapper
Bolinsky made special pains to convince me they were right to check me out since I was with a child. I might be a child kidnapper. He said if it was my son kidnapped, he would go all out for that and implied he would risk his life. I said I appreciate that and understand, but you overreacted. You did not have to do an unwarranted search and assault in order to find out if I was the boy’s father. And I told him that since I carry everywhere and am very careful about security in general that it’s unlikely my son would be kidnapped in the first place. Also, the FBI works kidnapping cases, so it’s pure blather.
Ooops, Made a Mistake
When Zinni appeared, he gave me the good cop routine and I was already in cuffs. I thought I was about to be arrested and taken away. I did not want my son to be in the charge of social services even for a moment so I gave him my address and asked him to take the boy to my wife. What a screw up. They forgot the address later on and asked for it again but I didn’t give it again. My driver’s license has a Philly address on it.
Attempt to Establish Rapport
As soon as he appeared, Bolinsky asked me if I was an NRA member, trying to profile me as a conservative type I suppose. So, instead of answering, I asked him if he was an NRA member. Yes, he said. That’s just him trying to form a rapport.
First on the Scene a LIAR
Lacy (who arrived first) claimed he had already promised to provide his business card at the end of the encounter, after I asked repeatedly for their ID. That was a lie. But he claimed I lied, instead and proceeded to invent two other lies, apparently trying to discredit me in front of the other cops.
Finally Asked My Son
Bolinsky asked for my son’s name and I refused to provide it. I should have asked him for his son’s name. When finally they asked my son if I was his dad, he nodded. He was huddling against my left leg and they claimed it looked like I had him scared. He is scared of YOU I told them. It was another attempt to get the advantage over me but it failed. Before that Bolinsky asked me three times if I was his dad. I answered him clearly the first time, I said. “I am his father.” So the next two times I said “I already confirmed that for you, sir”.
“What a Nice Day” Says the Thug
The other plain clothes person near the end said “What a nice day!” I said yes, it is a beautiful day to go for a walk with your kids, except when people like you come and assault me like this. Then he said he would not carry a firearm if he was out walking with his son. I said, that’s terribly dangerous. It’s a crazy world out there and my son is too important to me for to take any chances. Isn’t yours? And you know when seconds count the police are minutes away, I added.
Peppered with Questions and Claims
They constantly peppered me with questions and statist-perspective claims meant to get me to cooperate and submit. I always rebutted their nonsense and clearly stated how they had violated the rights they were supposed to respect and protect.
They checked me several times on their computer and then when they were ready to let me go they checked my firearm and it all came back negative of course. Zinni claimed I was obstructing justice for not providing personal information they demanded, which was a lot. That claim can give one a panic attack when they have you in that position of stress they create. But it’s just more bullshit to get you to submit.
Outright Refusal to Identify
Near the end I demanded their badge numbers, names and bond numbers (again) and they outright refused to give them to me. I was able to see Bolinsky and Zinni’s names because they’re embroidered on the shirts. They said I should go to the police HQ. I said, no thanks. if you’re violating my rights wantonly out here I don’t dare risk going into your own house.
Who’s in Charge? The Thug, Of Course
When all but O’Brien and one other person had gone O’Brien snarled at me asking if I thought I was in charge, how dare I ask for their information. “What makes you so special,” he asked. I said, you have the guns and the willingness to use aggression – you’ve proven that today – so clearly you are in charge. I could have had the same exchange with a mugger.
One made a snide comment about numbers not being good with the bible so I shouldn’t be asking for them. This was another attempt to refute my logical self-defense against their aggression with ridicule based on some assumption from random profiling. A guy exercising the right to open carry a firearm on an autumn walk in the park at 1:30PM on a weekday must be a bible nut conspiracy theorist. (People who study the bible are not nuts of course.) This is like when democrats claim I am a birther because I said something critical of Obama and they have no reasoned rebuttal.
When finally I was released and picked up my son to comfort him the O’Brien character gave me the “I am going to sock this SOB” look but since I was holding my son he didn’t do it – this time. He was the last one to leave the scene and there would have been no adult witnesses had he chosen to commit further aggression.
They handed me back my firearm, then my mag and left the rounds 10 feet away. Of course they were fully armed and even Bolinsky had a four extra magazines sitting on his belt.
See Son: Words Work
I sat down and talked with my son for several minutes, hugging him and telling him, look it works, you can face the bad guys and talk sense into them until they leave you alone. We can deal with people just with words and not with violence – even when they assault us. I hope I can continue teaching him this. He got some extra attention this afternoon, which is why this posting is delayed.
Not Angry, Relieved
I am relieved about making it through without significant caving or mistakes. I looked them in the eye and talked to them like equals. I did not bow down or mince words. I stood up for myself without doing wrong or being rude. I am not even angry about it. I am traumatized but not angry. I’m not “out for justice”. I am not planning to file a lawsuit. I just want the aggressors to STOP. I may visit them at their lair, still debating that one. I am so disappointed I did not get it on audio or video.
Oh and it turns out an older lady walking an angry little dog called the cops on me. Man with a gun in a blue shirt, khaki pants and a little boy. Textbook aggression.
220 replies on “Plymouth, PA Cops Assault Me and Terrorize My Toddler Son Right Outside My Home”
Holy crap. What a bummer! Sounds like you handled it very well, despite what, for me, would have been a very scary issue: your son potentially being in the custody of those violent cops while being passed off to the government child “care” institution had they arrested you.
Once the cuffs went on I was really frightened about what they would do with him. It’s something I worry about a lot because I have known for awhile that encounters like this were inevitable.
I’m glad it ended OK, and that your son is safe. I’d hate to think what would happen if he had gone into the system, even for an hour.
You should look into legal recourse, if you have the time, money, and patience for it, if only to put them on notice that you’ll hit back (figuratively) if they try anything again.
It also crossed my mind that you might have screamed your head off when they first physically assaulted you, just to attract adult witnesses. It would be nice if you could set up some way via the cell phone to alert your wife if you see such a thing developing again, so at least she can come and get your son, and take that worry out of the equation.
Glad he’s OK, anyway. You have a teachable moment here.
Holy smokes, George, that sounded scary. I stand by you in your effort to demonstrate that open carrying is not equivalent to aggression, and I applaud your calm under what sounds like intense duress (and a whole lot of statist malarkey, as well). I think you are right to be relieved and yet still traumatized; I think I would personally be angry, however, because of the implied threat that they could separate you from your son.
I would have found that emotional pressure almost too much to bear. I am so sorry this happened to you, but it also sounds like you dealt with it like a paragon of integrity and non-aggression.
Thanks for sharing this, George. I’m glad they didn’t arrest you and take your son away.
Good idea Kyle. Thanks everyone.
I’m glad it all worked out, George. The whole time I was reading this I was picturing myself in your shoes since I also have a little boy (who I imagine would be quite traumatized by this kind of thing). I plan to pass this around widely so people can better understand the lack of clear distinction between the Mafia and the State.
Isn’t asking for an officer’s bond number supposed to be some sorta get outta jail free card?
Anyway, very sorry (though not surprised) to hear about this. You behaved like a man.
And I’d love to have this on fr33agents.
Exciting stuff! We are intending to get handguns soon and to start open carrying here in Utah. I hope when I have a run in with the cops, that I can stand my ground just as well as you did. Awesome job!
Kudos on standing your ground, it’s terribly unfortunate, but your son learned a valuable lesson today.
Darren, thanks for commenting. Are you preparing your boy? Is he old enough to start understanding a little. I have been, little by little, and I think it helped him get through it just a little today.
Thanks guys. I look forward to hearing about your open carries Brodie. Nick I thought they had to provide the bond number but the one thug who even acknowledged that topic claimed he had no bond number, had no idea what I was talking about.
At least 5o-100 readers have already come in via the stumbleupon submission, thank you to whoever did that. It’s important other people are aware of their rights and the need to defend them when assaulted by thugs calling themselves “police”.
George, While I don’t open carry, I am a firm believer in gun rights. We need them to keep our police and our government honest.
I submitted it to Reddit about 15 minutes ago. Hopefully that brings some more.
ummmm, what’s the point of having a f***ing gun if you’re not going to use it to defend yourself from police violence? if that had happened to me, things would have gone down A LOT differently. if you don’t sue the sh1t out of all those pigs, individually, going after their personal assets, then you are doing all your fellow “citizens” a major disservice. writing an angry blog post and then doing nothing about it makes about as much sense as willfully handing your gun over to an armed and dangerous thug. we’ll never have liberty if people don’t fight back.
You see. The difference in SPORTING a Gun and having the BALLS to ENFORCE YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS has just put your POP GUN TOY AWAY along with your Civil Right’s. You would have let “ANYONE” haul your child away anyway. Now who is afraid ? ? ? YOU ARE. HA ha.
Dude why the hell would you bring a gun, to get into a gun fight with your son around? Seems like you were asking for trouble, but since its legal i don’t see why not i guess and I’m from Canada, so I am not used to guns at all. But yes those cops sounded completely unfair, its one reason why the whole idea of cops doesn’t work, humans cant be put in a position of power without taking advantage, they all get “power-trippin” which is a piss off that’s for sure
Holy Wowzas, there, Mr Donnelley. I used to be a solid defender of law enforcement across-the-board, but I’ll admit your posts have been helping me to see the flaws in that.
Thanks Joe, Nick, Adam. Winter Bear and Anarchist, perhaps you have a point. After conferring with a friend who knows something about this stuff I am considering going after Mr Lacy and his buddies. Watch for details.
Jordan, I carry a firearm to protect my family and myself. ‘Nuff said.
Free men have the right to carry their legitimately procured property. Carrying property is asking for it to be stolen as much as wearing a skirt is an invitation to rape. IOW, it’s NOT.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
Shameful and disgusting. Good job standing your ground. We’re all in support of you, also glad to hear your son is ok.
trust me, you will find a lawyer to take this case on a contingency basis. you just need to create a letter and email it to as many places as you can.
just google “pennsylvania police brutality lawyer” and go from there.
i admire your courage to exercise your right, whether “legal” or natural and inalienable, to open carry. good luck.
Anarchist & Winterbear — Leaving your children fatherless; while perhaps ok in your personal lives; is not always the best option for the rest of us.
That’s absolutely sick. The way you handled yourself is admirable though, and an example I should make mental note of…
oh, and that old busybody that called the cops on you needs to spend some time in prison.
@Anarchist, there is a time and place to use your gun. Using it on someone who appears to be a legitimate cop is a quick way of getting yourself dead or in jail, and away from your child. It is relatively safe to assume that someone claiming to be a cop, is a cop. And they have a whole army backing them up.
Got very nervous just reading this. Stay safe, George.
If you are not aware of the site, OpenCarry. org.
and then specifically, http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/ (for PA).
I am not sure of the PA forums but the Michigan forum has a lot of helpful, useful, legal information for these types of situation. It may help to post your story there in the PA forum.
I am so sorry to hear this happen to you and your son.
(I came in through reddit)
@anarchist, you should have no trouble picking that fight any time you think you’re ready. Why are you still here, then?
Abbie has a good point. The old biddie with the yappy dog needs a good talking to. In a perfect world, she should get more than that, but this is not a perfect world. I’d suggest honey, not vinegar, maybe have her over for coffee to discuss your views, and how you are prepared to defend not only yourself and your family, but the community and even her should the need arise. If she remains recalcitrant, you at least know your enemy a little better.
George, I’m so sorry this happened to you. I hear about these things happening more and more in other states, but few happening in NH. It just feels like sometimes that the cops here understand that some are going to open carry and not to bother with them. These guys in PA didn’t seem to have that same thought, and why would they, it’s not like you can sue them!
I think the way you handled yourself was excellent. You did the right thing and I’m glad you shared how you explained it to your child. I couldn’t even imagine trying to convey that message, thanks for the tips. Are you still planning on moving to NH as part of the Free State Project? If so, I’d be glad to hear your Porc 911 call and hopefully things like this won’t happen to you here.
It sounds like you made the best of a crap situation, George, which is commendable. Still, reading this really makes me feel like crap.
I was musing yesterday, walking in the neighborhood, about how when I was a kid in the late 70s and early 80s I would from time to time stumble upon spent shotgun shells or small-caliber rifle casings as I wandered around the more wild areas near where I lived outside Orlando, Florida.
I imagine, today, what the reaction would be if a kid found one of these someplace and brought it home to show mom and dad — and then connected those thoughts to your story.
America doesn’t seem sane to me any more. Maybe it never was, but it once was to me. Did it change, or did I? Probably both.
Yes I was thinking about that lady yesterday. If I see her I expect I will send a thought-provoking comment her way, such as “it’s not very nice to use aggression on your neighbor.” Will have to work on that. I don’t want to approach her and trigger another call to the cops or invite her into my home and then have her use any info gleaned to provoke another call to the cops.
infinityplusone, thanks, that’s on my todolist for today. :D
Hey Anton, good to hear from you, yes I am still strongly considering moving to NH. My lease is up here in May. I’m hunting for some land to buy. We’ll see. It’s incidents like this – and the fact that I can’t find a collaborator for FIJA activism – that repeatedly push me to move to New Hampshire. :)
I was away for 12 years and america definitely changed – a lot. But I changed, too. So it’s probably the same for you, Mike. :D
Thanks Mike, Abbie, Anton, Kyle, Nick, JD, Brodie and others for your comments. I appreciate it.
I’m sorry to read about your experience, George. I applaud you in how you handled a difficult situation. Having your son with you was an added complication. I’m confident that few of us patriot fathers would have performed better in similar circumstances.
These types of affronts to our liberties are to be expected. By exercising your open carry rights you and others are in essence working muscles in the body politic that have been atrophied. Waking those muscles up again is a service you do for all of us as it puts you on the front lines where you feel the brunt of the state’s resistance. Thank you.
Jesus man, this story made me particularly sick to my stomach because of your son. I mean, as anti-state activists we can expect a certain level of harassment from these thugs, but it’s scary as hell when our kids get dragged into it for whatever reason. I commend you for your reactions, because I know that if my 2.5 year old daughter was with me and I was in a similar situation, it’d be damned hard for me to remain calm about the prospect of her being out of my custody even for a minute.
Thanks Matt and Dave. I was not calm about it. I begged Zinni to take him to my house where my wife was, which was just 100 feet away. I don’t want him to see that so early in life. At the same time I won’t let fear of police terrorism stop me from taking a walk with him or going unarmed or even with concealed carry. I didn’t bring it on, but I’m prepared for when they bring the fight to me (or so I hope).
I think it’s good for kids to see this, just not at 3.5 years of age. If things are this bad now, what will it be like when they are adults? I went to Prussian-style schools and was not prepared for this stuff. The next generation needs different preparation.
Just thinking..suppose you were a police officer and she saw you with the gun..my son in law, a retired police officer always had his weapon on him..even in the hospital when his wife delivered..Police even out of uniform carry their weapons..Nosy old biddy.
George – thanks for standing up for our rights – get a lawyer – I know a good firearms lawyer in Montco – let me know if you want his info,
See you at Appleseed next week.
George, my older son (also have an infant) is 4 and a half. I make the occasional comment to him to about the police to counter the police-as-hero crap he absorbed in daycare, but that’s about it. I’d appreciate any suggestions you might have in that area (you can just shoot me an e-mail).
At least you got to teach your kid that members of the State police/terrorist/thug monopoly are evil.
Sorry this happened to you. You handled it well, much better than the cops. However, this type of thing should never happen in America. Yet, this
I think this type of abuse needs to be exposed everytime it occurs. Please contact me at the above email to set up an interview on my radio show.
Wow. Must have been a slow day for 5 cops to show up. I agree strongly with those who are placing more focus on the lady who called the police though. That’s the real problem isn’t it?
You were having no trouble at all until someone called to report on you. That call gave them ‘permission’ so to speak (and they would say ‘duty’) to harass you.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not defending the police behavior AT ALL. But this was not a case of a cop seeing you with the gun (without an attending report) and then deciding to come up and harass you.
The call instigated the action on their part, right?
So it seems to me that this story demonstrates that the real problem is the fact that those being ruled are perfectly willing to call the authorities on people even when they are doing nothing wrong.
We would probably make much more progress focusing on how to communicate with people about this rather than complaining about the cops behavior and attitude. It would also do much more to prevent such occurences too.
Mr. Donnelly: I admire and applaud your actions in handling this situation. I have two teeenage daughters and understand the fear that must have gripped you knowing that these men might take your child from you. The way you handled yourself that day, and continue to handle yourself, with law enforcement/peace officers (both oxymorons) WILL stay with your son his entire life. From the day my daughters entered school they knew that if a police officer, (principal of their school, etc) detained and wanted to question them they were to state, “My name is… , my birthdate is, my mom’s name and phone number are… please contact her.” I didn’t know if they would remember or even need to use this but last summer a police officer detain my daughters and her friends for loitering in the park (five, fifteen year old girls sitting in the park gazebo). My daughter took charge, gave only the info I told her to give and instructed the other girls to do the same. The cops tried to bully her but she held strong and was respectful. I HATE that she had to have this experience but am so proud of how she handled herself… and frankly, she gained confidence in herself from this situation. BTW, there was a woman at the park watching the entire scene play out. She gave me her name and number and said she would be a witness if I needed one. She said the girls weren’t doing anything wrong and that my daughter was “very respectful and assertive.” So….. getting around to what I really wanted to say… “Teach your children well.” You are doing just that and your son will be a wiser, better person because of that. Good job Dad.
You shouldn’t have let them stop you or handcuff you. Just keep on walking and mind your own business. If they don’t have probable cause to stop you they can’t do anything.
@Patriot: Please tell trying that to a passel of trigger- and taser-happy pigs with the smug glow of privilege about themselves, and do let us know how it goes. I recommend bringing a friend to film and immediately post the video.
It would have been a bad idea to walk away. The police would have shot and killed him. Then, it would have been George Donnelly’s word against the policemen. The police could have said “He was reaching for his gun! We had to murder him!”
Debbie, it was 6 cops total actually. Yes, reportedly the call prompted them to harass me.
Rachel thank you and kudos on your daughter. That is really impressive when a young person is able to find the self-confidence to defend themselves against an authority figure.
Patriot you have a point but I think FSK definitively refuted the argument that I should have resisted.
Over at the open carry forum some are advising me to delete all references to this and hire a lawyer. I most certainly will not delete my comments on this as it is more important to me that other people learn about what is going on than it is for me to improve my chances at getting any kind of settlement or punishment for the aggressors. It’s not about that anyway.
Thanks to all for your comments.
you fucked up. The answer is YOU NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE. If they ask a question just look at them but do not open your mouth.
Suing the State police in a biased State court is a waste of time. It’ll be a lot of time and money wasted for nothing.
It’s pointless to sue the government.
Obviously, if the man had co-operated, all would have gone smoothly. But seeing as he chose to have an attitude, of course the cops would check him more closely. If he really wanted to carry a gun, he should obtain a CCW and carry it in a fanny pack on his outings to the park. Open carry makes alot of folks nervous, especially mothers in a park with children, if any had happened to be around.
@Jeff Frame: Yes, yes, because “cooperation” with the occupying power’s police force is the basis of something not entirely unlike “freedom” — right?
@George: Don’t even think about deleting this post at this point. I’ve got an armed cache here, and I’m ready to use it! :D
Jeff, you mean if I had submitted. If your values lead you to submit, so be it. Just don’t foist your nonsense on me. Open carry is my right and my responsibility. The only child in that park was *mine*.
@Mike, go for it. :D
Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us. I too would like to see this featured on fr33agents.com.
I thought I was brave for carrying a butterfly knife.
Common sense tells you not to cary open in a park where children might be present, regardless of whether your son was the only child there. And yes, co-operation with the police also makes sense or none of this “nonsense” would have happened. Then again, without aspiring writers like you causing incidents to happen, you wouldn’t have anything to write about. Please move to New Hampshire, I want irresponsible gun toters like you as far away from me and my common sense approach to carrying a firearm, as possible. You give us a bad name.
@Mr. Frame: “Common sense”, indeed, is what tells you that the world is flat. And that dipshits are princes, and that beggars will ride.
Common sense tells me that there are bad guys out there and I’m terribly naive if I think bare hands and a 911 call will save the child who depends on me for everything from a committed bad guy.
I’ve met a lot of timid gun owners like you Jeff. I find it disappointing that people who made it as far as purchasing a firearm and learning how to safely use it can’t take the extra step of realizing it’s all a waste of time if you don’t carry it.
I find your cowardice disgusting. Live on your knees if you must but don’t pass cravenness off as “common sense”.
“Live on your knees if you must but” “may your chains rest lightly upon you”…
I’d rather live on my feet than die on my knees.
There was no reason to stop him at all.
“Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun” would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they be required to produce identification or other documents.”
John, FSK thank you both for your comments. Good stuff.
“I sat down and talked with my son for several minutes, hugging him and telling him, look it works, you can face the bad guys and talk sense into them until they leave you alone.”
“I am traumatized but not angry. I’m not “out for justice”. I am not planning to file a lawsuit. I just want the aggressors to STOP.”
It’s because people cave into normalcy and either are ignorant of their options or are unwilling to persue them that we even have a police culture that regularly violates our rights to life, liberty, and property. You didn’t talk them into being good guys, and in fact if you don’t peruse relief, they will only be bolstered by what they got away with here, and it will be worse for the next law-abiding person.
It sounds to me like crimes were committed, so not only should you consider filing civil suit but also criminal charges (via private criminal complaint.) Here are some potentially helpful comments on the private criminal complaint, but note they appear to be written in response to someone else’s abuse at the hands of police:
I’m still uncertain why you continued to converse with an alleged officer who wouldn’t provide identification. At that point he could be any criminal dressed up as an officer ready to do harm to you and your child. GET AWAY!
O. Rly, I’m hearing your argument. Something about using state aggression to get relief from state aggression just doesn’t work for me but I’m going to see about what my options are.
You are right, I should have gotten away from him. I should have told him to stand back. At this point however, my options narrow. I will not lead the police to my home where they can now justify invading my wife’s life and all that is in my house. But, yes, I need to study this incident and learn from it.
Thanks for commenting.
Also, the reason people tell are telling you to delete your description of the events is because if the Commonwealth/defendants every discover them (should you pursue a civil or criminal complaint), they will become VERY scrutinized in the courtroom. Also, you don’t want to provide defendant time to make up falsifications to combat your claims.
Absolutely write everything down from your incident, because the longer you wait, the more you may forget or confabulate. There’s just a more appropriate time to release that information than now.
“Something about using state aggression to get relief from state aggression just doesn’t work for me but I’m going to see about what my options are.”
Would you just prefer to simply ‘learn from it’ if some laymen burgled your house, raped your wife, and killed your child, in a situation where you were unable to (attempt to) defend them from it? What is the difference between seeking justice for that through the courts, and doing the same for this? It sounds to me like you may be pedestaling state actors, who can be just as much criminals as laymen, and in fact when they act outside the lawful scope of their duties, that’s all they become: criminals.
Gatz is right. Never talk to cops when they question you. Just stick to, “Officer, am I being detained?” If they say yes, politely tell them that you have no obligation to speak with them and ask them to please promptly arrest you if they feel that you have or are committing a crime, or to let you go so that you can go about your business (enjoying the park). They will avoid saying that you are or aren’t being detained. So just keep repeating the question. If they say no, however, then tell them, “If I’m not being detained, I’m free to go. May I go now?” If the answer is no, “Then you are detaining me? Are you detaining me?”
Now, I recommend that a group set up an open carry event at that park with a letter sent in advance to these thugs to let them know when and where. It could be a combined picnic and litter pick-up like Ridley’s NH group. Set up the event by posting on a few meetup sites – Delco, Bucks, Montco, Philly, Chesco. Oh, add Lancaster. They can always be counted on to defend personal liberty.
Thanks for the food for thought O. Rly. I appreciate it. I know why I am being advised to take down my comments but I stand by my reasons for not doing so.
An open carry litter pickup is a great idea Bill. Thanks for your comments. I still have quite a lot to learn.
“I just want the aggressors to STOP. ”
The only thing power understands is money, and the only way to make power stop is to take away its money. If you want them to stop, you need to speak their language. File complaints against all of them, and sue each and every one of the, the precinct, the city, and the angry little old lady who called you in.
George – Btw, go to http://ronpaul.meetup.com/972/ and send an email to asst. organizer Bill. He will give you contact information for an attorney who specializes in gun rights lawsuits. Based on discussion, he’ll tell you whether or not he’s interested in working on a contingency basis. Don’t consider that you don’t have a case.
@Jeff, common sense tells me to carry a gun openly to a park. That way the bad guys know to stay away from me, and probably most of the other people in the park.
I am all for standing up for your rights, however there is a fine line between patriotism and provocation. Sacrificing the security of your son in that situation on the altar of your ideals was both irresponsible and poor modeling. That exchange could have, and sadly often does end very badly for the open carrier who stands on one principle, one ideal to the sacrifice of another. Someday I hope you will understand that well enough to apologize to your son for endangering him in that way on that day.
Re: [SPAM] Harrasing citizens
I sent an email to the Plymouth PD congratulating him for having the world know how poorly his thuggish officers behaved. Mr. Lawrence replied:
Thank you they did the right thing
Sevastian, I did not provoke anything. The thugs put my son in danger, not me. I did nothing wrong and everything right.
So, Lawrence thinks they did the right thing? Does he think it’s possible for his fellow thugs to do anything wrong?
Nope. That train left the rails when you decided to take what is “legal” and to make it a mandate. Cops have enough crap to deal with without having to check out armed citizenry to insure that their intentions are peaceful. Furthermore, the cop didn’t stop you on the basis of a random decision. He was responding to a call. As to pushing him for his badge etc, did you have any reason to believe he was NOT a cop? I submit that you were intentionally badgering the guy knowing full well what the response would be. You made a choice that comes with certain consequences regardless of your interpretation of law… and then you whined about the consequences of your decision. Whether you think there should be consequences or not is irrelevant to the fact that you knew/at least suspected that there would be. There are a lot of things that are legal. Not everything that is legal will come without some semblance of negative consequence.
“take what is “legal” and to make it a mandate.” – this is unintelligible.
“Cops have enough crap to deal with without having to check out armed citizenry to insure that their intentions are peaceful.” EXACTLY.
“did you have any reason to believe he was NOT a cop?” You’re all backwards. The burden of proof is on him.
“I submit that you were”… You weren’t there.
The rest of your nonsense does not merit a response. You’ve taken your cowardly potshots, now go away.
Too bad he didnt blow your silly anarchist head off. hehheheheheehhe
Thanks for confirming what kind of person you are Jeff. Now we peaceful folk can discount what you have said entirely.
If he had complied with their false arrest and questioning, he would have “consented” to their actions.
If he had not complied with their false arrest and questioning, as he said, the cops could have pushed him around then arrested him for assault.
Right-wingers always pissed on anarchists and protesters about police brutality, and now you know why. By attacking activists and protesters, you gave the police additional power over YOU. And now because guns are being increasingly marginalized it is the right-wing gun carriers who are being affected….guess who is laughing. Anti-gun democrats and the very protesters you laughed at when they were abused.
As a lot of people are now coming to realize, the government are trying to protect their monopoly over taxes and their cushy income derived from taxing people and marginalizing them into powerlessness. The police are being armed with military weapons.
You “WORE” a gun, Because, you are a “chicken punk wanna be bad ass.” You watch TOO much TV. I WOULD HAVE SHOT the COMMUNIST PIG in a FAIR Draw. Although be it the Pig would loose.
Anyway, You have been CALLED OUT – And your YELLOW. . .
Put your toy up, BOY. We ALL know your a chicken shit . . .
Winter Thea Bear
Vietnam Era Vet
4449th Combat Squad
– – – SORRY – – –
I was NOT TRAINED to be
COMMUNIST – ANTI AMERICAN
ACLU VIOLATING RIGHTS
NAZI POLICE TERRORIST PIGS
Dont Worry the COMMIE PIG is YELLOW TOO . . .
He just hasen’t met a REAL AMERICAN MAN – “Y E T . . .”
Jeff Frame is obviously blissfully unaware of what the courts have declared and what is covered in the mandatory training that all po-lease officers in Pennsylvania receive.
A person with a gun who is doing nothing but going about his business is not offering any reasonable articulable suspicion of doing anything and is not to be molested by the police. The cops have a different view of this.
The cops claim that they don’t know if you are a good guy or bad guy until they “check you out.” The problem is that we, the citizens, don’t know if they are good guys or bad guys until they beat or shoot us. The likelihood of running across a bad cop is about the same as a cop running across a bad guy walking through a park.
Heck, a LEO just shot his wife the other day. She probably trusted him. Every cop that I’ve ever known has bragged about beating a suspect because the fellow gave him some verbal grief. I guess that those guys are trustworthy as well.
We trust cops to protect our society but for some reason, it is too much to expect them to follow the rules.
Stumbled onto this, George. Best of luck with this and any future contacts. It may not work out like this, but if the NOB calls you in again, maybe eventually the police will tire of chasing after her fears and tell her you aren’t of any concern. I used to dispatch locally, and once someone was checked and found to be OK, the officer(s) generally would indicate it’s a waste of time to return. For those who suggested getting a CCW permit, that’s fine, but even that hasn’t prevented some really bad outcomes, one guy indicated verbally he had a CCW as required (wasn’t even carrying at the moment) and was taken down hard by an overzealous officer, a veteran of all of 2 years on the street, and his backups. He was apparently released with no charges since he did nothing wrong, but I suspect the local PD hasn’t heard the last of it. Pretty sad when you consider someone that carries openly or concealed with a permit is as close to an ally as anyone gets. And folks, don’t forget, all who carry a badge aren’t abusive like this. Be careful out there.
You should file a lawsuit. It is the only way to remedy this type of behavior.
umm, maybe you shouldn’t carry a gun? if you hadn’t been carrying a gun it would have never happened.
Go ahead and sue them. I know you don’t want to use the state apparatus to teach the thugs a lesson. But short of of vigilante justice, what choice do we have without private dispute resolution? We drive on government roads for the same reason.
I’m behind you 100% for whatever you do. Lets get the community involved. Clearly, we have problems with the public’s perception. How about a NH style open carry trash pick up day, in the park.
Thanks for your comments everyone.
Thanks James, the open carry trash pick up idea is a spectacular one.
Blogged it . . .
Here’s a similar incident. This guy had a recorder on him.
Now on YouTube for posterity . . .
George – Waiting for your email re attorney. The guy has made a certain spunky second amendment sister in west PA some money each time cops have disrespected her constitutional rights. No LEO’s in her area screws with her gun rights anymore because the memo went out.
@ducku, maybe you should hide in your house and never go outside, that way there will be no chance of the police harassing you.
Bill, email sent, thank you.
Alright, George, I now understand the problem.
From your Voluntaryist blog post, your tenets:
“# the recognition that the state is aggression and to be consistent with one’s principles one must never participate in the state, including its elections.
# it is not pacifism. In other words, I reserve my right to self-defense.”
And now from your incident:
“But before I knew it he had my hands cuffed behind my back. He took my firearm out of the active retention holster, removed a pocket knife that was clipped onto a pocket and, amazingly, reached into a closed cargo pants pocket and removed my wallet!”
You realize that you lost control there, right? that you and your son, prisoners of war, were as good as dead, because all that self-defense prep was lost the moment you lost situational awareness? Maybe you’ve seen a lot of Jackie Chan movies.
So, the issue that I see you’ve created is you now have moral superiority but can’t stand to leave the world of pragmatics, because I feel that anyone who takes on the voluntaryist view without endangering himself is a person who will live life on the run, constantly pursued by the state. You either have to run from the state to avoid these scenarios, or you have to run because you’ve successfully defended yourself from state aggression.
I do not disparage a life of flight here, but notify you of its apparent matter of fact. Am I wrong about your predicament?
i dont believe this why the hell would u carry a gun whilst out walking with your son…..yanks unbelievable….u brought this all on your self…so fecking stupid….
Karl Healy – If you are truly an Englishman, you know that you are a subject. Nice going.
Yes. I was not prepared enough. I know that. Feel free to keep reminding me, I need to hear it.
Of course, what else was I do? Run and it escalates. Resist arrest and now they have something to arrest me for. Draw on the cop, if I get lucky and he is slow, I get him on the ground until his buddies show up. I still lose, I am arrested and if I’m not so lucky one drops me the minute he gets out of his car.
What does Jackie Chan have to do with it?
Or I can non-violently, passively almost, disobey them. This is what I opted for (to a limited extent). This is a principled route. This is not to deny that it troubles me to no end that Lacy could well have been a child kidnapper and I would have lost my son without a shot fired.
Do you have any thoughts on how I could have handled it better?
Easy, don’t carry a gun, don’t get the thugs in your face, [email protected] not saying what they did was right, not at all it was wrong in all cases, BUT if you didn’t have the piece they wouldn’t have batted an eyelid at you.
@Karl, to scare off potential bad guys. Duh.
Well, we can move into the conjecture realm momentarily, but to address facts at hand:
I’m not sure how well this could have been foreseen, but based on your other voluntaryist/anarchist premises, you should have not placed yourself in the probable situation that you would be forced to be a victim or to defend yourself.
Next, by your description:
“Back on the street, outside the park, just steps from our home, a dark blue crown victoria pulled up behind me and asked if we could talk. I asked about what? He said I was carrying a gun.”
That was absolutely a ‘mere encounter’ that you should not have responded to but walked away. You have no responsibility as a subject to confront a mere encounter. It is not probable that walking away would have escalated the situation at that point, although possible. At the point you had no reason to believe that you initiated force, but did not feel ‘free to leave’, as we liberty-leaning subjects call it, you may have considered running. There are questions as to whether avoiding a lawful /detention/ is resisting ‘arrest’ as arrest and detention are (I should think) exclusive, but see: 18PACS5104.
(But as a free man, why do you care?)
Unfortunately, it’s always possible police may have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion for some other crime to which you are completely unaware, and for liberty-leaning subjects, this is an annoying scenario, thinking one has done nothing wrong but facts in tow suggesting otherwise. For voluntaryists, however, I just see it as coming back to flight or defense, as any submission greatly increases mortality rate.
This of course does bring up questions like ‘what happens when a voluntaryist knows they did something ‘wrong’ like initiating force’.
My best guess is that your morals don’t match your lifestyle. You’re going to have to ditch one. We live in an incredibly tricky world, barely navigable as is.
@Ian, don’t carry, have some stranger assault you. Loser.
That is life in 21st century north america. It is unavoidable. They can come for you at any time, for anything. They can invent justifications for it later.
He is no longer a voluntaryist. Your question is like ‘what happens when a saint becomes a murderer?’ Those are mutually exclusive concepts.
That’s an easy conclusion to come to from your armchair, with your limited understanding of my values and your almost complete lack of knowledge about me.
I don’t have time to read all 100 comments, so I apologize if this information is repetitive:
The email address for the Plymouth, PA JackBoot Dept is:
…if you’d like to express your views on this attempted kidnapping, by all means, let them be heard.
“That is life in 21st century north america. It is unavoidable. They can come for you at any time, for anything. They can invent justifications for it later.”
I have to believe there’s some sensibility regarding risk mitigation. To say that because the wrong is /potentially/ inevitable that one is free from ethical binding seems suggests the rule is no longer the rule. Further, I just reviewed some commentary from you on using assets borune from aggression, and although I couldn’t tell whether you stuck with ‘no use of proceeds’ or ‘if the free market would have given it to you, it’s okay to use the immoral proceeds’, it seems that you did in fact have a choice to take a leisurely walk on roads/sidewalks that are right of ways of government, let alone the use of a park that is probably not private property.
“That’s an easy conclusion to come to from your armchair, with your limited understanding of my values and your almost complete lack of knowledge about me.”
I don’t understand why you’re now taking a cornered-dog approach to affronts to your morality and your attempt to live with it. I take what I read here, from YOU, and try to apply it to the facts you present. I see dissonance, which you either aren’t aware of or don’t care about, or maybe I see incorrectly.
So I ask you to reflect, which isn’t something I can do for you. Sometimes the sense of morality is wrong, and sometimes the actions are. If one receives a new piece of Truth, would it be wrong to adjust future actions or to revise one’s ethic? If so, at what point was one’s morality the ultimate Truth?
I am saying that I will live my life righteously and without cowering in fear or aggressing, and so it is inevitable that I will be singled out. I could not possibly design a lifestyle that avoids entirely the possibility of either being a victim or having to use violent self-defense.
That said, I am working on ways to minimize those possibilities, including moving to a more remote location where my livelihood will be farming.
I’m still working on that topic however I am certain of one thing: property claimed by the government is unowned (stolen) property and should be righteously homesteaded. That’s what I do when I walk in a government park or drive on a government road.
I get the sense that don’t know enough about liberty or me to do that yet. However, if you continue your learning process, I am sure that soon you will be qualified and you will have something constructive and thought-provoking to say on this particular topic. Keep it up. :)
To the contrary, it is *required* of one who does not wish to be a hypocrite.
Like any other research effort, the search for Truth is like the building of a wall. Each time we learn something new, the structure is filled in, or expanded. It is an ongoing process. It’s like the scientific method.
What exactly is it you want me to reflect on? Please be as specific as possible.
I work for a company that is contracted out by homeland security, and as such, I carry a sidearm. Even when I’m off duty, I have my firearm on me, and it has saved my life several times while living in New Orleans. In all these cases, I never had to fire the gun once, the sight of it alone scared off the attackers.
To think the police could not see the merit of this is confusing.
To think they would act that way is downright criminal.
To think that older lady could be so foolish. I often worry more about the people who look unarmed then the ones who are visibly armed. At least I know what they have. And chances are, if they are advertising it, it’s not because they want trouble.
I am not, nor have I ever been a fan of frivolous lawsuits, but I believe this should be taken to the courts as far as it can go.
I would like to follow this, and see where it goes from here. Good luck in dealing with the situation. And well done in how you stood up for yourself during the assualt.
Thank you Alan. I will be posting updates. :D
Wasn’t it an off-duty police officer with The Plymouth Township Police department whose unholstered weapon killed a man at a Super Bowl Party last year?
Yes, it was.
Well, then. That speaks to the professionalism of Plymouth Meeting’s finest.
I’m very sorry to hear about your troubles, Mr. Donnelly. I had a similar experience carrying concealed IN MY DRIVEWAY. I was cuffed and placed in “investigative detention”, unlawfully searched, and ultimately found to have done nothing wrong. The cops reason for even stopping me? I was smoking a cigarette at night in my driveway. From this experience, I have learned one very, very, important lesson. Record every interaction you have with police, at least on a voice recorder. Since then, I purchased a smart phone that is capable of recording video and audio, and even uploads to Youtube. From what it sounds like, you would have been well within your rights to have recorded this incident.
Immediately after the incident, I filed a complaint with my local police department. Their take on the incident was that the only violation of my rights that occurred was that one of the officers had improperly searched through my cigarettes, and that otherwise, everything done was by the book and that the violation of my rights was justified simply because I politely told the officers I was in possession of a firearm (something that is legally required in the state of Oklahoma). Unfortunately, I was not able to find a lawyer who would pursue my case in court. It is very hard to fight City Hall, particularly when cops are involved. I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of justice.
It’s time to terrorize the police. This piece of shit needs his life ruined. It should be open hunting season on these subhuman scumbags. Someone should find his home address and photograph and post it for all to see.
I was looking at Google Maps of Plymouth. I suspect you had most of the on-shift officers with you that day. Definitely a candidate for Little-Police-Department-Syndrome. And what’s that the officer’s on in the photo? It’s not even a proper Segway or dirtbike.
Omegis13, I am sorry to hear that. Thanks for commenting.
Patriot, I don’t think an eye for an eye is the right way to go.
Mark, I think you’re right! Geez, 6 cops. Yes that is Mark Anthony Lacy pictured above, first on the scene. But when he assaulted and violated me he was in plain clothes, big dark sunglasses and driving a crown vic. I believe they call that contraption a chariot, believe it or not. Hehe.
Wow! I’m really sorry that this happened to you. Sounds like you did a great job keeping your cool. What a stressful situation for the thugs to place you in!
You can’t hurt a cop’s ego! Hurt a cop’s ego and watch how fast they break the law to arrest you! Fucking pussy hypocrites! Don’t trust lawyers to help you either. They will take your case to the township then take their money to drop it and cut you out of the deal. That’s what happened to me. If you think PA is bad, come to Jersey. The home of the hurricane, racial profiling on the parkway, etc. The cops here think they can fuck with people like it’s 1963! I did get pulled over by that cop again. He was very nice this time. He let me go without a ticket. Don’t be afraid! Don’t let them take your rights!
I think police depts need to have a I.Q cutoff point. If you were a criminal don’t you think you’d be carrying concealed? Think maybe they are bored and just like fucking with people?
Find a lawyer. Sue the cops. They won’t get qualified immunity. Seizure of your person and running the numbers on the gun violates your 4A rights. Get the facts right in discovery and go from there.
I went over to the Plymouth township municipal building at 700 Belvoir Rd where I filed a PA “Right-to-Know” request. Here is the PDF of what I filed. I continued my practice of open carry during this visit.
Thanks everyone for reading, commenting and supporting. It makes a difference.
And people ask me why i don’t trust suburban police..
All of you keep forgetting that they were following up on a call. They had to respond. Would yoou have them not respond? Or should they just respond to every third call? What if they received a call of a break-in at your house while you were out? You would expect the police to check on your house! You are crucifying them for doing what they are suppossed to do.
George, you refer to the fact that he did not properly identify himself. Then you state that he showed you his badge and stated that he was a police officer. That is all he has to do. You also claimed Lacy lied about offering you his business card, yet you have his Badge number and job title. He must have given you the information that you requested. You also mention that you asked for his bond number. I muself and not a cop, however I was raied around police officers. Several uncles and a cousin have been police officers and I have never heard of a bond number. So your “Get out of jail free” card doesn’t exist.
To patriot, the fact that you show your colors when you openly wish for the terrorizing and hunting of police officers. Thank you for letting all of us sane people know that we can discount what you say.
Quark, they had to respond to the call, yes. But they did NOT have to arrest me, violate my right to be secure in my person and papers, steal my firearm, knife and wallet, terrorize my son and otherwise act like thugs. You’ve conveniently ignored their many excesses in this case.
He *flashed* his badge by pushing his sportcoat aside. The badge was on his belt. I did not even get the badge number off of it. So that does not conclusively prove he is a cop.
You’ve skimmed the story Quark, in your haste to comment. He did not promise to give me his card before he cuffed me. But later he claimed he did and claimed I was lying. At the very end of the encounter he gave me his card, which includes his badge number.
I did not say that a bond number was a “Get out of jail free” card.
You will find yourself received with more credibility and respect in the future when you familiarize yourself with the facts (as I have presented them of course) before commenting.
I have read all of your so called “facts”. I remind my self that the story I read was simply your side of the story. There are always two sides. In cases as these I have always found that there is a need to hear from the other parties involved. Even then, one has to sift through the information and use and educated judgement as to what actually happened.
In the end, you still got the information. I miss attributted the get out of jail free comment to you. It was from one of your responders. That stated, the bond number still does not exist. You got his name, title, and badge number. That is all the information there is to collect.
If you would have give him the information he asked for, you would have shown that you were legally carrying a gun and that would have been the end of the story. You chose to escalate the situation by not giving what was requested.
Actually, when you apply for a police officer job, you are given an IQ test. If you score too high, then you are rejected!
If you’re too intelligent, then you aren’t allowed to work as a State thug! It’d be embarrassing if they started thinking for themselves!
@Quark, do you understand their law? According to their own law, they have no right to ask for identification just because someone is carrying a gun. You are also posting a strawman. No one has claimed the police should not respond to the call. However, according to their own rules, all they have to do is assess the situation. They should have determined, after showing up, that there was nothing wrong going on, and left. Instead, they decided to break their own rules, harass George, and go so far as to break their own rules and handcuff him and make an unlawful search of his person.
Maybe you should go learn what the governments own laws say before you start commenting?
Quark, why do you think I said the following? You’re flogging a non-existent horse.
I asked Plymouth township to release *their* “side” of the story to me as they are required to do so by their own rules. They must respond no later than Oct 20. Stay tuned.
Your ignorance is showing again. Open carry is legal under PA law, there is nothing I must show for them to know that. They are not allowed to demand *anything* from me until they have some sort of suspicion, which they did not have.
“Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.”
Brodie and George – They did asses the situation and had at least some suspicion. Which would require them to follow-up on that suspicion. I know you don’t like the rules when they go against you but you still have to abide by them, like it or not.
Oh so you are in contact with the men who assaulted me?
No. But I am sure that is what they will state. Heck, I would want to follow further if it was myself. It just is the next logical step in an investigation. I am a chemist by training, but I have to investigate issues that arise. Trying to talk to you, would be the most logical step to take.
Because the level of force you use is only legitimate if it is necessary to end the threat. Obviously, George thought it was not and he turned out to be right. Also, using a deadly weapon is not political posturing; it’s a serious matter that requires considering all the elements of the situation, including the likelihood that using deadly force would actually lower rather than raise the short & long-term threat, all things considered.
Sure you would, tiger. Been in a lot of gunfights with police lately? Why don’t you share your stories and expertise?
Because he should get into a gun fight with his son around without a gun? At least from the rest of your post, I can see you aren’t completely clueless. Just a few cobwebs to sweep out and you’ll be on the right page.
What’s next on your list? Skimpy dresses cause rape to happen?
I think the last thing that George is concerned with is patriotism. I think you are confusing the citing of constitutional amendments with a belief that the constitution or the state is the source of those rights. The constitution in this story is simply a stand in for the natural liberties George has as a human being in a language that the police are more likely to understand and have sworn to respect. It doesn’t require George to believe in it or idolize it.
As for “provocation”, where do all of you people with your skirt-excuses-rape style logic get your ethics? Because you are more frightening than the police in this story. Nobody, and I mean nobody but the police (and the old lady) endangered George or his son. Twisting the language like that makes your perspective clear, no matter how you might protest to the contrary: you think the presence and behavior of the police in this case was not only legitimate but properly carried out. Absolutely scary.
Way to miss the point. The point is that they should not be checking out the “armed citizenry” simply for being armed.
So this is how responsible gun owners talk? Cavalierly joking about blowing people’s heads off for being what…rude?
@Winter Thea Bear…By the looks of your spelling and all-caps style, I’m guessing you are about 12 (physically, mentally or both).
Oh, for crying out loud! Again, the victim is never the cause of aggression.
@George, I agree that your logic about not using the state to fight the state is probably not veryconsistent if you (say) drive on state roads, for example; it’s not anti-anarchist to drive on those roads. I know that you see it as the state using aggression against aggression but that is an incoherent concept; there is no such thing as using aggression against aggression. If there is aggression coming from one direction, the opposing force is by definition not aggression. (Also, the state no more is aggression that it is a ham sandwich. I’m probably being overly pedantic but that phrasing grates my seamy philosophical underbelly. But on the other hand, I’m probably being under-poetic, in which case, just overlook me here.)
The point shouldn’t be so much that it is the state monopoly offering the service but rather is the service something that wouldn’t be available or just in the absence of a state (or costs too much or whatever). Unless you feel that using the state courts (the only ones available, sadly) would subject others to unjust statism, I say don’t hesitate and stay aware.
Tell that to Mark’s friend or Omegis13 (see their comments above) or any number of unarmed individuals that are terrorized and even killed by police. There are little old ladies out there that will call the cops because you “looked suspicious”.
Look, I’m not going to argue that open carriers shouldn’t expect more attention anymore than I’d argue that tax protesters shouldn’t expect a visit from the IRS; the state is predictably absurd. But I don’t see George complain about why he’s getting this attention or asking what he can do to get less of it. He seems perfectly aware and as weighed that against the threat he feels from criminal harm and the need for personal protection from that. He seems more concerned with the fact that such an outcome is possible or probable in the first place by making his readers aware and publicly declaring the situation.
Flat out ridiculous!! How you kept your cool is beyond me!?!? Glad you and your son are safe and best of luck with any avenue you take to get this situation resolved/disputed/exposed. Keep us posted.
@Quark, again, you need to go learn what the law says. Having a gun is not enough reason for suspicion to search someone or put them in handcuffs.
I probably would have done it differently.
First, I wouldn’t have surrendered the gun, since they could not lawfully ask for it (in my state, anyway). If they went for it anyway, or pulled one on me, I would have wasted them. Regardless of the consequences. Some people just need to be killed, and others sometimes learn from that. Of course, I’m old enough not to care; harder for someone with his life ahead of him.
Otherwise, I would have kept my mouth shut. It’s well known by now that arguing and debating with cops does you no good. Every lawyer in the world would tell you to keep your mouth shut. What are you trying to do, arguing to a Gestapo thug to be good? It is pointless.
No, it’s not time to “terrorize the police” (Patriot 10.11.09 at 8:06 pm), but it is long time to socially preference against them – and other enforcers of the State. The situation is larger than just your encounter, George, as terrible as it was for you (and your young son) – but that fact is one I think you realize. A major part of the solution for withering the State is to have nothing voluntarily to do with government enforcement agents. Without the enforcing agents, the Laws/Mandates/Edicts/Decisions of all the legislators, government executives (President included), and judges are meaningless! This is a universal truism anywhere in the world. The enforcers are the key!
I recommend that any anti-Statist reading this who personally knows a government enforcer, urge him/her (hir) to get a productive job. If s/he rebuffs the persuasive arguments then reduce voluntary associations, and finally to none, letting the individual know exactly why you are doing so. And let others know that you are using negative social preferencing with this person and will do so with any other government enforcer who persists in that role. Have no voluntary interactions with any government enforcer! This selective (discriminating) association to exclude those who cause harm is a potentially very powerful method of non-violent action, referred to as ostracism by many down through the ages. It is included in Gene Sharp’s 2nd volume (of 3), “The Politics of Nonviolent Action”, Chapter 4, “The Methods of Social Noncooperation”. I and husband Paul Wakfer use the term “negative social preferencing” for purposeful non-voluntary association (contrasted with positive social preferencing towards those who do provide value) and have describe how it is the ultimate effector of social order in a truly free society (The Freeman Society) – http://selfsip.org/solutions/Social_Preferencing.html
Even in the current very unfree societies (of which the US is a major one), negative social preferencing can be effectively used to influence individual social behavior and the actions of the State. http://selfsip.org/focus/protestsnotenough.html
Neverfox, calling the state to my defense is aggression because everything the state does is aggression.
It’s like if my next-door neighbor wrongs me and I point a gun at all my other neighbors to make them join me in my fight for restitution.
Thank you for your comments, very cogent and insightful!
Robby, thanks. I just kept in mind that this too shall pass. :)
PJB, he already had me handcuffed before he took my firearm. And btw clearly he knew what kind of holster I was using (Blackhawk Serpa Level II CQC) because he opened it like a pro. And I have a feeling bad guys don’t use active retention holsters.
That is exactly what I was doing, among other things. ;D
Kitty, thanks for your comments, those are great suggestions.
@Brodie, So you were one of the police officers? How do you know what was going through their minds? If they felt the situation needed further investigation, then it did.
@PJB, May the good Lord keep you away from my family. Anyone who thinks that little about life is a threat to all of society!
Well, I think that depends. Are we talking civil suit? If so, I think the best someone could accuse you of would be utilizing some of the property and infrastructure of the state. If that’s the case, those arguing that you were being inconsistent would have to explain why that would be any different from driving to work on a state road. In other words, there is, without any implication for your intention or consent, a certain background presumption of state presence and “use” in everything we do. That’s why we need more anarchists!
Therefore, I think the analogy to holding a gun to your neighbors is strained a bit, if you’ll forgive me for saying so. You aren’t holding a gun to your neighbors head to help you get to work in the morning or to help bring water to your house. These things are under the unfortunate control of the state and you can’t consent to the state. Also, since you are attacking an arm of the state, I would liken it to Roderick Long’s analogy of the rebels taking control of the Death Star to destroy the Empire. It would be odd to say they are somehow part of the Empire now because of the objects they are using (probably paid for by the blood and sweat of their neighbors). You could even take an offset approach and redirect any financial windfall to anarchist causes or return it to the community somehow. Something to think about at least and I certainly don’t want to detract from your story to argue fine points anarchist-vs.-anarchist. ;) There are better times and places.
The only people that are dangerous to a free society are spineless subhuman scum like you that worship these fucking thugs, and will let them get away with anything, even atrocities. Quark, you need to leave this country, because there are many “dangerous” people like me and PJB, and we will plot and plan and kill and die to maintain our freedoms that we have TAKEN for ourselves. FREE MEN are what you are afraid of.
@Kitty, your nonviolent “passive aggression” is nice, but pointless against Jack Booted Thugs. You know what happens to peaceful protesters in this country? They get teargassed, beaten, and thrown into “detention centers” while some bureaucrat comes up with some violation to charge them with. Peaceful protest hasn’t accomplished anything since the 60’s, when your oppressor is killing you and throwing you into prison the answer is not to march and yell, but to KILL.
Good work man, I know that must have been hard – I’d been on the other side often enough to know how much easier it is for the aggressor than the victim.
Therefore, I think the analogy to holding a gun to your neighbors is strained a bit, if you’ll forgive me for saying so. You aren’t holding a gun to your neighbors head to help you get to work in the morning or to help bring water to your house.
But of course you are. Who funds the state? How are those funds derived? What are the consequences of refusing to contribute? From whence its authority? Cooperating in lieu of being shot is forgivable, as is taking necessary action which doesn’t sanction the state but may either benefit it or benefit from it indirectly (purchasing goods at a store that pays taxes, driving on state roads, etc). Overtly and voluntarily cooperating with the state however is just using its guns by proxy.
If I were you I would get a small recorder w one button recording. Learn to use it in a hurry.
Patriot, while I sympathize with your anger, violence begets more violence. Good people avoid it as much as possible. What Kitty is talking about is not passive aggressive in nature.
I suspect Kitty would partially agree with you.
Thanks for your comments all.
@Patriot, you, sir, are wrong! I love this country. I love the fact that, though I may disagree with some of your beliefs, you have the right to have those beliefs. You have the right to be ignorant. You have the right to carry your gun. You have the right to show your true colors. I don’t fault you those rights, nor do I wish that they be taken away from you.
This country is great because people like you and I can disagree so vehemently but yet still leave together peacefully. If you cannot accept the fact that people not only have different beliefs than you, but are completely entitled to have those beliefs, then you are the one who should leave this country.
I agree that George has the right to openly carry his gun! I don’t agree with how he handled the situation. I choose to handle things in a different manner. That still doesn’t mean that I am un-American or even subhuman in anyway! So please “patriot”, love the country that you are in, for what it is, or promptly leave for any other inferior country that you choose!
I will start off by saying that I am for your right to carry. I don’t see my self exercising it in a park where there might be children…I think that was not to smart on your part. Question is, if you are going to than why would you be surprised to be asked by Police officers for your ID? I don’t see what the problem with providing it is. You clearly had nothing to hide…so why in the world would you act like you did? I think I would have considered you to be acting a little suspicious if I were a Police officer, with the whole “show me your ID first nonsense” I happen to know Officer O’Brien and know him to be a fine cop, and a great guy. Perhaps, you took his “looks” the wrong way. I have never seen him put on some sort of a “tough guy” act.
This could have turned out worse for both you, the cops, and most of all your son. Perhaps, you could refrain from bringing a deadly weapon to the park with your Son next time, and if you don’t perhaps you should be prepared for the same occurrence by concerned citizens. I don’t think I would appreciate seeing you with your gun while my child was running around, I wouldn’t call the cops, but I might leave. Please don’t misunderstand, I am 100% for gun rights, and also 100% for the right to carry…however I think there is a time and place, and the park… for me is not one of them. BTW, I tired of be accused of being anything other than a concerned American, when I disagree with the President as well…LOL
Karen, thanks for commenting. How did you find this article?
So you are happy for people to have defensive tools, you just think that when we take our most precious cargo outside into the unpredictable and dangerous world, that the defensive tool(s) should be left at home? Isn’t that precisely when we *most* need those tools?
All it takes is for one sicko to show up to your victim-ready zone and the tragedy will be unspeakable.
This is an intermediary view between the anti-gun perspective and the recognition that a gun is simply a tool and doesn’t hurt people all on its lonesome. I run into this view constantly in the Philadelphia area and it is very disappointing to see people stalled in their intellectual evolution. Best of luck.
What makes you think I was surprised to be asked for ID?
The point is that under the rules of his own employer, just open carrying is not enough cause for him to demand my ID. And this bogus kidnapping claim is not enough either IMHO.
I’m very much looking forward to Plymouth township opening up their records to me on this under the Pennsylvania Right-to-Know process so we can learn more about this alleged 911 call Lacy responded to.
I know when someone wants to slug me, I grew up in a lower-middle-class neighborhood. He gave me the “I want to slug this SOB” look, looked at my son (whom I was holding) and walked away. At least you have the integrity to reveal your personal connection.
I welcome questions from concerned folks. I am a gregarious person and willing to calmly and reasonably discuss almost anything with almost anyone who approaches me with a similar stance.
What I will not tolerate is thugs violating me. If you’re ok with it, that’s your life and you have the right to bow down if you want to. Just don’t foist it off on me.
@Karen, why in the world would the cop ask for his ID, when obviously, he is doing nothing wrong? What right does the cop have to ask for the ID in the first place. I would hope America would stand for something more than being a police state like the Soviet Union. “Papers please comrade”.
This seems to have very little to do with open-carry. It has everything to do with the way cops react to a person who doesn’t immediately bow to their authority. I have had several cop encounters, where I chose not to answer a cop’s questions. They get very belligerent, when you fail to prostate yourself before them.
Our culture is permeated with this cop/soldier as hero BS, and the concept that obedience = virtue. We need more people like George who will hold their ground, and most importantly, educate their children about the true nature of the state.
Brodie…Seriously? What right does the cops have to ask for ID? Ummm how about because he is a cop, and he is serving to protect the community. Let’s say that George happened to be a felon, who has no right to have a weapon, and noone even asked for his ID…then let’s say he ended up shoting someone in the park that day? Who’s at fault then? The cop who never asked? YES, of course that’s who everyone would blame. Just because you are a human being walking through a park in PA, doesn’t mean that you must be “ok” to carry that weapon. Of course the Police Officer had a duty to make sure you have a right to have that weapon…NOT everyone does you know…I mean you are aware of that, correct?
See the problem with people like you James is that you most likely someone not to be trusted. I have no problem “bowing” as you put it to a Police Officer. I am not a criminal, I have nothing to hide, I don’t fear that they might in some way make me feel “not tough” for a minute. See…hears how it goes “Oh, hello Officer…what?…oh, someone called about my pistol…Absolutely, I will show you my ID…Well, I brought the weapon, because I feel unsafe here with my Son…Ok, thank you Officer have a nice day, I will think about who else I am affecting by bringing the fire arm to the park next time, thank you”…Sorry, I see nothing wrong with that. See, I was raised to respect authority, not act like I deserve the right to get away with whatever I want without question…If the cops were truly out of line, than after you speak respectfully to them and walk away…it is then you take it to the next level. It is unlikely that you acting like a tough guy to cops (who I might add reserve the right to be tough, they have a tough job, and should be respected, if they are a jerk so what? Is it better to call them a jerk to their face or say it to yourself after you walk away?) will ever end well. Just my opinion of course.
Tell your friend to read the 2009 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission update, or you can read it yourself at:
I vouch for James. He is trustworthy. I’m still wondering though Karen: how did you find this article? Did your buddy O’Brien or his network of thugs direct you here?
Well that’s your problem. You should only respect lawful authority.
That’s a strawman.
KarenC, Your willingness to blindly bow to any authority is an essential component of fascistic societies. History is pretty clear about what happens when the state awards or denies the “privilege” of self defense. Sorry if you are offended by those us who prefer not to live as subjects.
@Karen, it is irrelevant that it is illegal for some people to carry a firearm. What is relevant is that neither U.S. law nor PA law authorizes a police officer to ask for ID just because someone has a gun. Or do you think the police should be able to disobey the law anytime they want to?
As to it being illegal for people to carry a firearm, that law is a joke. If someone served their time in prison, they served their time. If they are too dangerous to trust with a gun, then why are they on the street and not still in jail? And lastly, do you think some stupid law will stop a criminal from getting a gun? Are you that naive? Are you also so naive as to think a criminal would openly carry a gun? All gun laws are stupid. Criminals do not follow laws, only law-abiding people do, which means it is harder for a law-abiding person to defense his or her self from a criminal.
No, George the O’Brien “thugs” WTF? Did not send it to me, but a friend of mine did…little paranoid are we? The more I read what you say the more I realize that it probably didn’t go down as inoccently as you claim. I suggest you look up the meaning of Straw Man…that is not me, but however it could be you.
Karen, your comment with the ad hominem will not be published on my website. Patriot, ditto. I won’t tolerate that level of nastiness from anyone.
Sure, a friend of yours … and that came to you via the thugs or their buddies. You admit you know O’Brien, so it’s likely you came here via them or their friends.
I was there, I know what happened. My portrayal is accurate and did not leave anything out that is relevant or substantial to the best of my knowledge. (I was under a lot of stress from 6 directions and most likely do not remember some small details.) The topic will be moot in a few days once Plymouth township employees respond to my request so there is zero point in talking about it now.
So…George. I was reading your link to the Open Carry Act: and was wondering what park you were in when this happened?
from the Open Carry Act:
Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm
possession is generally restricted (i.e. courts, schools, state parks or where
So…Was the park a State Park? Was the park near a school?
Re. Patriot 10.12.09 at 10:16 pm and George Donnelly 10.13.09 at 8:02 am
I will reemphasize my recommendation of Gene Sharp’s writings, mainly for the benefit of those making comments here who do *not* think that returning violence (or just violence-provoking behavior) with violence will get a person anything but injured or dead when the initiators/provokers are government agents. At age 81 with numerous writings on the subject, Gene Sharp is probably the current greatest authority on nonviolent action as an instrument of social change. His descriptions of the nonviolent and not-so nonviolent actions of the past (including Russia in 1905, Ghandh in South Africa and India, US civil rights movement, and even ancient Rome, to name just some) are extremely interesting with his analysis of what went right and wrong. Although Sharp is not an anarchist and appears to be actually a statist of the democratic sort, all of his strategy and many of his methods can be employed by anti-statists in bringing about the withering of the State. His collection of strategies and tactics are a valuable resource for study by serious anti-statists. See his website that contains some of his writings and lists all of them – http://www.aeinstein.org/ His books are available in large bookstores and Amazon; and recent interviews of him can be found on the Internet.
Keep in mind that the enforcers of the State are comparatively few in number in relation to the entire populace. When large numbers of people in an area refuse to voluntarily associate with law/regulation/edict enforcers and the reasons made well known, some of them will resign their positions rather quickly. And if it is clear that the same negative social preferencing will be used towards any replacements, the total numbers of enforcers will begin to fall. It is not a quick process – it can not be if it is to be effective towards withering a social system that is still accepted by the majority as being necessary for an orderly society.
But as I stated before, the correct philosophical basis for what replaces the State must be understood and accepted otherwise any glib talking politician-like individual can easily sway those whose grounding in mutually beneficial social interaction is weak or non-existent.
A self-ordering society of individuals interacting to mutual benefit, each with the goal of maximizing hir lifetime happiness (the purpose of each whether or not s/he recognizes that fact), is possible, even though the vast majority of the current world’s populace thinks that governments are a necessity for any order to exist. Individual self-order *without* rule by others is the social system whose members are humans who have become *fully* adult. Just as people can become physical adults, so can they become social adults – if only they are allowed (and even required in the sense that they will not achieve their desires unless they do) to socially mature sufficiently. Understanding the social interaction methodology by which more individuals would progress to become fully socially mature adults requires a paradigm shift in thinking about human interactions. I invite – and even challenge – those who seek a society of individuals interacting to mutual benefit (or are maybe only curious at this point) to read “Social Meta-Needs: A New Basis for Optimal Human Interaction” (http://selfsip.org/fundamentals/socialmetaneeds.html and then review the twin frameworks of the Natural Social Contract (http://selfsip.org/solutions/NSC.html ) and Social Preferencing (http://selfsip.org/solutions/Social_Preferencing.html ), both of which flow from that basis.
George, of course you can choose not to post my comment, I really don’t care. And, I’m sure it will make you quite happy if I just disappear now. That’s fine too. But before I go I would like to say this.
I have lots of friends who have license’s to carry, and also ones who open carry. They all are much tougher than you. And, of those I know none who would not be willing to cooperate with a police officer if confronted. You seem to have sort of a complex, or someone who is looking for trouble. You are a victim. I fail to see how you were assaulted. Guess you must have left the part out where they threw you to the ground, and beat you with night sticks. This was not an assault. You didn’t like the cops attitude? Well, poor you. And, to show such disrepect to law enforcement in front of your son, and to call them thugs (probably to your son also) is not helping your son grow up in this society…one that has rules. I would never act anything but polite to a police officer in front of my children…never. I want them to respect authority no matter what. If nothing else, but because it may keep them safer. If they grow up to be the one kid in the crowd with the mouth towards a cop, than they will probably be the one kid who will be singled out by them, as they probably should be. I don’t want that. You think what you did is right, I think what you did is wrong. I still don’t see what you had to gain by not complying with a request from the officer. You say “your rights” were violated well I say that’s a bunch of crap. You were looking for trouble, and with the amount of police force that seems to have shown up, I’d say you did a pretty good job of that.
How many state parks are in Plymouth township? How many schools are in parks? You can answer these questions yourself, can’t you? The answer is “none” to both btw.
The rest is repetitive and baseless nonsense.
Anyone is welcome to post on-topic, reasoned, ad-hominem-free comments on my website. I do not wish for you to go away, but if you wish to continue posting please observe the rules and avoid being so repetitive.
What in the world are you talking about?
There are NO schools in Plymouth Township?! What?!
Here is a list
I count 17!
As for the rest…well of course you would dismiss it as baseless nonsense. You do not like for someone to maybe point out where you may have gone wrong do you?
After I posted I did realize that I indeed was wrong…You said what schools are IN parks…my mistake. However, what is the law for having a weapon within a certain distance from a school? I know there is one…Is is 1,000 ft or something? Perhaps, your parks was within this distance of a school? What do you think? Possible?
Kitty, great stuff. I downloaded a bunch of his works that I could find online and will be intellectually preferencing them for serious study soon. ;D
I said: “How many schools are in parks?” … “None”.
Do you see now the difference?
Actually I seek out opportunities for smart people to constructively criticize me because I am committed to self-realization. That’s why it’s so frustrating when my critics don’t present a cogent argument.
No worries about the mistake.
The 1000 ft law was struck down by the supreme court.
While we are quoting the scribbles of politicians…
Article 1, Section 21 of the Pennsylvania Constitution: “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”
Now what was the question?
Karen this has nothing to do with being tough, although I’m sure you think those big manly police officers are so tough with their guns and badges. I bet it gets you a little bit — just knowing all that power they have. I know women just like you, I call them “Porkophiles”, you’ll support anything an officer does, because his use of power satiates a primal need for power in females.
As for Kitty, your “social negative reinforcement” will not work in this society, precisely because of people like Karen. You’re right, defending yourself against violence initiated by Government Agents rarely turns out well, look to Waco for such an example. However INITIATING such violent action will prove to be far more effective than anyone realizes. The only way to gain back our freedom is to do it the same way it’s always been done, by killing the motherfuckers that are taking it from you.
Patriot you’re treading a thin line. Please don’t embarrass me with the sexual nonsense, ok?
EDIT: any more comments including anything off-topic, anything immature, that smacks of personal attack or anything else obviously inappropriate will not be published.
I’m not so anti government, but try to read all spectrums of people’s beliefs, but it seems to me like you could have jsut shown him your ID and not gone through a lot of this trouble. I understand self protection; I work security and have been shot at, had knifes pulled and been in near riots where I was incredibly worried for myself. And almsot every time, a COP or many would be there helping me. I know many many cops some WILL in fact lay down their lives for your rights, and some will screw with you just for kicks because they are meat heads. If there were no cops and just vigilantes enforcing ‘law’ don’t you think you’d have the same? That cop didn’t know you. He knew you had a gun he knew you had a kid, and he knew you weren’t being cooperative. Hell, Police tend to be very gun law friendly, atelast most I know, because they are immersed in the firearm’s world; often times veteran’s with even more immersion.
I agree with you that this situation got way out of hand, but it takes two to dance, and you were on the dance floor. Only a few people here are being hostile towards all police officers, but I hope those people never once dial 911 when their lives or family’s lives are in danger. Better yet, get a police scanner and start showing up to every call from domestic violence, to robberies, to gunfire. And I know people will say htey are armed and will take care of their own families, but that just isn’t reasonable. 5 people break in to your house armed because they also have the right to bear arms…have fun with that one.
Again not trying to be hostile towards anyone, and I agree these particular officers were in the wrong, but not everyh officer everywhere is a meathead. Andrew
Andrew, showing the ID card assigned to me by the government gang is de facto giving up of some of my rights.
Those are two extremes. There are many choices in between fascist thug and vigilantism. Let’s talk about them. It is my opinion that police services can be offered on the free market like home security systems or cable TV subscriptions. Services provided by violent monopolies never turn out well.
The police officer has sworn an oath and claims to be working within a system in which he has strict limits and I have inalienable rights. Lacy, more than the rest of them really (who just came to watch the show, justify Lacy’s excesses and, in one case, finally un-cuff me), wildly passed his limits. All I did was defend my inalienable rights.
By his own rules, he can’t just demand my ID like that. He himself admitted this! The real question is: why are you willing to hand over your rights like that? By doing so you are facilitating the police state.
If these allegedly good officers want to prove it, resign, start your own private policing business and sign up customers using voluntary means like all the rest of us do.
Thanks for commenting.
We all have something to hide, whether socially or legally. State actors aren’t there to propagate information they believe indicates an affair or a shady business deal, and state actors will create evidence of crimes out of NOTHING. They need only claim the ID of the alternate-universe-cooperative-George is fake or that the bulge around his abdomen looks like a bomb, etc.
Here is another reason we all have something to hide. Suppose George was tied up in a criminal prosecution he didn’t deserve based on this incident, and some officer alluded, in a non-sequitir, that George was a child rapist, based on some inane object he acquired in the course of unlawful investigation. George is not a child rapist, but in any case that should not be relevant, but either way in this criminal prosecution, George is found guilty and appeals. The appellate judge feels, personally, that George has a superior legal argument, but the judge also abhors child rapists to the point that it affects his judgement. The judge performs some legal gymnastics to condemn George because he thinks George is a child rapist.
Replace ‘child rapist’ with anything that offends anyone’s sensibilities.
But wait! Consider even further that the bad case law the judge just made, not persuant to George’s superior legal argument, will fix the rights of all in the state…all because he was ‘so respectful’ of authority!
KarenC already makes a great subject and will someday make a great slave!
As for the GFSZ Act, the prior version was struck down on constitutional grounds (in Lopez, 1995 maybe?), but was then amended by Congress. All they did was add some words about ‘interstate commerce’. The current version HAS NOT been struck down, although I understand that prosecutions have been quite rare.
I wonder if things like this need to be collated into a “case” that should be presented to your State or Federal Congressman/Senator. You are correct in that there will be no remedy in the courts as they ARE part of the same gang. Speaking of gangs, have you seen this video?
If you havent, you need to watch it.
Thanks for your actions.
They key to this in my opinion is that the cop could be justified in stopping to talk to you to assess the situation and monitor your reaction. Why? Because any truly trained law enforcement personnel understand that there are tell-tale signs if someone is really up to no good while being questioned. Once the cop realized that you were calm, cool and collected, he should have backed off WITHOUT cuffing or disarming you, then he could have checked and double checked, while in his car, the vast databases we know they have for child abductions, etc., etc. and IF there was one near your location, he could have then cuffed you and “investigated”.
BOTTOM LINE: We have the “perfect storm” for “bad police”.
some supposed “great need” for more cops
not hard to become a cop
not a high paying job
what does this equal??
People who are generally dumber than most, many times “power hungry” and also at times 1 step from being a criminal themselves, being given the authority and a gun.
KarenC – go stick your head back in the sand and DONT and I mean DONT whatever you do, view this video. It would be considered blasphemous in your eyes.
Patriot – I might not word it like you have, but there is a quote that I “think” is from Jefferson. It goes, “those who make a peaceful revolution impossible, make a violent revolution necessary”
We are arriving at that point fairly quickly.
How do I know this and how do I know that we are in weird times?
Well, when I, a white boy from Western PA find myself empathising and NOW understand why rap groups like NWA and such from L.A. sang about the police like they did, something is up.
Interesting how when the cops were terrorizing the L.A. area, I didnt care and had the attitude of” they deserve it” and “thats what the cops have to do because their fighting gang members in those streets”. But now that its at my back door, I dont like it.
Sounds like Germany huh?
Sam and O. Rly, thanks for your comments.
Yes I have seen that unspeakable video. Crazy stuff.
In your own words “I am traumatized but not angry. I’m not “out for justice”. I am not planning to file a lawsuit. I just want the aggressors to STOP.”
All laws are for our safety and happiness (Declaration of Independence). The only way to get this “confidence” of the cops to stop is to bring them to their knees. That is where God wants them anyhow.
We must plug up the courts with lawsuits and bring them too to their knees. If we let them continue to violate our Constitutional rights we will no longer have any at all. We are hanging by a thread but collectively can still fight the good fight.
Please find an unrelated court and go after these thugs. I’ll be glad to help you should you desire.
If you think Nazis, or “Not See’s,” are EVER going to VOLUNTARILY STOP doing what they are doing, without being MADE TO STOP, you are very naive. These mind-controlled thugs have had their brains destroyed through what they have taken into both their bodies and minds over their lifetimes. People don’t just “magically emerge” from a devastated state of consciousness such as this. It takes WILL power that they DON’T HAVE, due to their conditioning and brainwashing. To understand this dynamic, and what the America public is REALLY facing, I recommend watching the 2-disc video documentary “Auschwitz: Inside The Nazi State,” available from
Particularly take note of the interviews with former Nazi’s, who, to this day, are totally unrepentant for the crimes against humanity that they committed. Once “people” like this exist, you’ve already failed. The goal is to make sure, through proper moral education of our young, that “people” like this never come to exist in the first place. Well, sorry to break the news to you, but it’s far too late for that. They’re here and they’re all around us. We made them. Now we have to deal with the monsters we’ve all made. And that’s exactly as it needs to be.
I am strong believer in the right to concealed carry and supporting our right to keep and bear arms. However, the right to carry and the common sense to carry do not always go together. As police officers we wear uiforms, carry guns and display our badge of authority. In civilian clothes we carry concealed or display our badge around our neck or on our belt. Okay, so Mr. ‘Do I need to show you ID” has a gun and he says a valid carry permit. Well, guess what, you do have to show the officer proof of your concealed carry permit and prove that you are legal to possess that firearm. You knew he was a police officer but you felt it necessary to fluant his authority which made him take it to the next level. Instead of asking the question, do I have to show you my id. Why did you not just do it. Don’t move your hands until the officer gives you permission. Tell him, “Officer, I have my wallet in my back pocket with my concealed carry permit. Is it okay if I get it. Let him tell you what to do. All over the country our police officers are getting killed because of some jackass perp with a gun. The officer does not know you. But he knows you have a gun. That gun will kll him if does not handle it the right way.
Open carry of a firearm just draws attention to you (Unless you are in Texas). Maybe you have some bullshit macho need to say “Hey, look at me, I carry a gun” If you want to do it right, carry the gun concealed until such time as there is a need to use it.
Had you spoken to the officer a little differently and not tried to show how smart you were, maybe you would not have ended up in cuffs. The officer did his job and when it was found that you were legal he released you.
We as law enforcement get these calls all the time. Many times these calls are real criminals with bad intentions. Most of the time we come home, sometimes we don’t. Those who pay the ultimate sacrifice do so to protect you. Every officer is not perfect and the vast majority go out there with the best of intentions. It is the people we come in contact iwth on a daily basis that affect how we react to a sistuation. Perhaps you would benefit from attending a citizens police academy. So the next time you see an officer on the street try saying, Officer, you be safe out there tonight and thank you for protecting my rights to carry a gun and have diarrhea of the mouth. You might be surprised at how different they act or how they talk to you.
I wish you well and trust that the next time you go out in public you will have your gun concealed. The next person to see you carrying openly might mistake you for a police officer and decide to shoot you and not even ask questions. It is a risk we take everyday
Steve, kudos on the integrity to disclose the fact that you are a cop.
Was I not carrying openly? You are a PA LEO, correct? Then you have received the 2009 Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission memo? Does it not clearly state that open carry does not require a permit under PA law?
No, he claimed to be one. I was unable to verify that. It is still not 100% verified.
If you know I am not required to hand it over and you have no evidence or concrete suspicion of me doing anything wrong, why do you ask for it?
Am I about to be detained right here on my blog?
I only moved my arm to comfort my son. What kind of inhuman monster would *not* comfort his son in such a situation?
Have you guys practiced this ridicule routine together? Why don’t you guys go first? When will you all take your own advice?
Wrong. A less irrational cop took a gut check and released me, over Lacy’s protest.
Has the government not acknowledged it has NO duty to protect individuals? Are you not aware of this?
Don’t you think it’s mighty convenient to blame the victims for every cop misdeed?
Such things exist?!
Why would I thank thugs for that when they did the exact opposite?
I open carry every day, even after the traumatic assault by your comrades.
Hiram, Sledge, thanks for your comments. Stay tuned.
@Steve, it is great to see that police are reading this story! Anyways, I don’t get what you mean by “the right to carry and the common sense to carry do not always go together.” Is it not always common sense to carry? Is it not always a possibility that there will be some bad guy waiting to assault us? As to your comment that police always show their badges or uniforms, can’t someone buy a fake badge and pretend to be a police officer? I admit, I don’t hear of this happening very often, but it could happen. Lastly, the officer did not have any authority to ask George for his ID, so George was not flaunting his authority, he was standing up for his right to be treated like an equal.
I’d like to note that commenter “Steve” above at
is the president of HarborSite USANA in New Jersey, a shooting range / firearms training center / sports center whose members “are all career law enforcement/military veterans”.
Learn more at:
So the course he suggested I take is probably offered by his own enterprise. Not to mention the additional conflict of interest here – cops are his customers.
You cite Ghandi as one of your influences yet carry a gun? Isn’t that similar to the soldier in the movie Full Metal Jacket who had a Peace sign right next to the words Born To Kill on his helmet.
Okay, we have a dialogue now. You have placed your side of the story up on the website and attempted to put us in your shoes. Since no one else was there, we only have one side of the story. My goal in suggesting that you look at attending the Citizens Police Academy is so you can “Walk A Mile In Their Shoes”. Perhaps if you did that it might give you a little different perspective of the life and death challenges that our law enforcement officers face on the street everyday.
As for the range we operate we have just as many private gun owners who are members and are 100% believers in our right to concealed and/or open carry. Some would take your position others would not. What we offer there is training for both citizens and police officers to better enhance their firearms handling skills. As for the citizens police academy, no we do not offer that. I believe that Plymouth Twp offers or did offer a citizens police academy. I know Horsham Twp offers an excellent program. This program can offer a law enforcement perspective of what they are faced with on a daily basis.
Another program that many police departments offer is a ride along program. You can actually spend the shift riding in the police car with an officer and responding to calls. It can be a very enlightening opportunity that may perhaps give you a diferent view of what they are faced with.
Sometimes we all find out that the perceptions of both parties based on previous experience, education, culture, and other dynamics came to gether to create a situation with an unintended outcome. The only way to know for sure is for both parties to come together, discuss it and see if they can at least understand the others position. The benefit of this can be that both sides will increase their knowledge and ability to deal with this in a more effective way should a similar situation occur.
Please let me know how things progress.
Because real criminals OC all the time, right Steve?
1. OC on foot does not require licensure/exception except when in Philadelphia, or during a declared emergency.
2. Any encounter without Reasonable Articulable Suspicion is a mere encounter; a person is not required to perform any action and may walk away from a mere encounter. Anonymous tips are generally not sufficient to generate RAS.
3. Having to regularly prove innocence at any evocation of a state actor is a violation of due process. Remember ‘innocent until proven guilty?’
4.. I think open carry in Texas was outright ILLEGAL up until a few years ago, and it may now require licensure (contrary to the findings of several state high courts that see open carry must either be protected by the second amendment specifically or the state’s constitution, even when concealed carry isn’t.)
Pepe, Gandhi was against gun control and said that if you can’t muster the soul force necessary to non-violently resist tyranny, that you had better muster the physical force. I do not open carry because I wish to kill, but because I wish to live. Do you also draw analogies between rapists and those women who fight back against their attackers?
Steve, I’m not entirely opposed to attending this course. Maybe I’ll look into it.
As to riding along, do you think the cops will let me open carry as I do that? I suspect not.
I am open to a dialog with the people who committed this foul deed at a neutral, publicly-accessible location with fair discussion guidelines.
Just to clarify something. I fully support the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms and believe that an armed society is a safe society. My comments in no way are focused on Mr. Donnelly’s right to carry a firearm. I support him whole heartedly and think that more people should do so. What I question is the open carry. Yes, it is intimidating. Not only to the little old lady who sees you on the street but to the lowlife scumbags looking for a target of opportunity. There is a down side to this. If I am a bad guy getting ready to rob the local bank and see a person carrying openly, maybe I will leave or maybe I will shoot him before he has the opportunity. We talk about our right to carry and our right to walk away from a mere encounter but there has to be a balance between the rights of people and the need to adequately protect our society. Communication and understanding from both sides is necessary.
As a police officer, If I make a vehicle stop at 2am and the driver is moving around in the vehicle, I cannot see what is going on in the vehicle, the driver starts informing me of rights and why did I pull him over and I don’t have the authority to ask him for his identification etc, Tensions rise, heartrate goes up, the hair stands up on the back of my neck and I start asking myself why this person is acting this way when all I did was pull him over to let him know that he had a taillight ou or in this case question the firearms carry. When their is a weapon involved it makes the situation even more tense. As a law enforcement officer I have rights too. The right to go home to my wife and children at the end of the night.
So try this the next time you have a police contact, if you get stopped in your motor vehicle at night, pull over far enough to the side of the road so the officer is not in danger of being struck by a passing vehicle, turn on your interior lights so he/she can see what is going on inside, do not reach for anything without letting the officer know what you are doing, keep your hands in plain sight and have your passengers do the same. Roll all your windows down so they can see inside the vehicle. Comply with the officers requests. If you are not a criminal then make this a positive contact not a negative one. Show them your identification or your concealed carry permit and let him them do their job which is ultimately to keep us all safe.
We require police to go to extremes and hold them to a higher standard than the average citizen but a little give and take on both sides can change the entire outcome of a contact with police. As in private industry there are always going to be a small number of cops that may cross the line but try walking a mile in their shoes before you judge based on this blog what actually happened.
Steve, A great beginning of a polite dialog on this topic should begin with a full apology from every cop that participated in the unlawful and immoral assault on Mr. Donnelly. Everybody makes mistakes, but how we handle them shows our true character. Lets see if they can do the right thing, now that they know the law.
Perhaps the citizens need to have a training program for cops on how not to violate individual rights.
Steve, I do not seek to intimidate anyone, and so find myself taking an even more conciliatory and polite stance in public when I open carry.
Is there any ‘balance’ between my right to be secure in my person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures and the cop’s feeling that he just needs to know who I am, RAS be damned?
Have you considered that it may be because you have NO business doing either?
Only in your capacity of a human being do you have rights. Have you considered that if you acted as a peace officer, instead of a policy enforcement officer, that you might have a better chance of getting home safely at night?
Why do you enforce victimless crime law? Why do you hassle people for carrying firearms? Did you not swear an oath? If so, what did you swear it to?
Given the number of laws on the book, that an average person can never hope to be entirely aware of, and the cop’s penchant for enforcing them selectively and at his whim, this is atrocious advice.
Here are some excellent videos that seek to protect individuals from aggressive cops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc (Parts 1 and 2)
Where is the proof for this ridiculous claim?
James, what a great idea!
@Steve, do you blindly enforce the law, or do you think about the law that you are enforcing and whether it is justified or not? To better understand my point, these short videos of Jan Halfeld questioning Elliot Engel will help you understand what I am getting at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8XYHXxMc0E, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu7LW6qMGxs.
Actually, we dont have a dialogue as you stated earlier.
We have you making statements that arent true, trying to make us think something that we know very much differently.
This is a good one from you Steve.
“We require police to go to extremes and hold them to a higher standard than the average citizen but a little give and take on both sides can change the entire outcome of a contact with police. As in private industry there are always going to be a small number of cops that may cross the line but try walking a mile in their shoes before you judge based on this blog what actually happened.”
go to extremes and a higher standard???
Are you nuts?? Have you NOT seen the myriad of police atrocities and then what??
Huh? WHAT HAPPENS STEVE!!!!!
Some bullcrap “panel” of your GANG(COPS) review whatever happened and give you guys a few weeks off without pay and then your back to work. Give me a freakin break. I could FILL this blog with examples from the past year of police KILLING FOLKS STEVE!!! Killing people!
“As in private industry”??? Once again, what r u smokin??
IN PRIVATE INDUSTRY, we get sued and fired dude!!
You get a “panel review” ohhh boy!! YOU get a freakin TIMEOUT!!
“small number of cops” – once again. COMPLETE LIE.
ride along with a cop?? Once again, do you think we are naive enough to think that they arent on their best behavior when they have a civilian with them??
And heres the kicker that you also think we arent noticing.
The PO-LICE and especially SWAT are very happy to bring all the state of the art military “toys” to bear on the public. you dont think we’ve noticed the “militarization” of the police force???
I’d love to hear your answer for why this militarization is happening. I KNOW however, that you wont answer that.
Heres the truth:
Cops have been thugs for a couple decades now
Today, cops do what they want and justify it with whatever garbage statements they need to with no thought of any rights or any Constitution.
NOW, we have video everywhere and we have the internet, so NOW we all get to see whats going down
NOW, you have an informed citizenry to deal with and I’m tellin you, if cops keep pushin, sooner or later it will erupt.
I’ll say it again. I empathize and sympathize with the people in L.A. who hate the PO-LICE. I NEVER thought I’d say that. Never in a million years. I was livid when the LA riots happened over Rodney King. And how do I fell now?? I understand those people.
The police posting on here, in the year 2009, with the DELUGE of information that is available to them in the public domain, STILL don’t get that they’re CLOWNED. You’re wholly owned, boys. You can’t see how YOU YOURSELVES have been deceived and turned into PUPPETS because you are too DRUNK with what you “think” is POWER. And your EGO won’t allow you to say the most powerful words that can ever be spoken by a human being: I WAS WRONG. That’s why the Nazis couldn’t turn back from what they did, either. Turning aside from the course they were on would have involved admitting they had been DUPED by their PUPPET-MASTERS. Make no mistake, you are certainly POL-ICE. But do you know what “Pole Ice” means. No, of course not. You are certainly “OFF-I-C-ERS.” But why would you care that you are “Off Eye Seers”? The term is meaningless to you. But please, stop referring to these pawns as LEO’s. It insults the great and proud Arm of the Great Cross, a high point of LIGHT. But again, those in Darkness haven’t a clue. Back to the ball game you go, have a hot dog, they’re great for the neocortex.
Some of your statements here have merit, others I feel, do not. Of course some of the people on this blog are way out in left field and i can only hope they don’t actually own and carry firearms.
At our training facility we host a myriad of courses for civilian and law enforcement members. I would like to invite you down to the range sometime and offer you the opportunity to see from a law enforcement perspective the many challenges we face in doing our jobs everyday. (At no cost of course) We can always agree to disagree when it is all over. But come down one day and we will have lunch and perhaps we can reenact the scenario and have an open discussion on the entire incident. At a minimum we will have some fun and go through some force on force scenarios. We may even come to see another side of this that neither of us realizes.
Steve, I’ll consider it, thank you. I can’t take my firearm into New Jersey tho, I understand, so it would be difficult for me.
Steve, I’m not certain you live in or know anything about America. I thought that we all knew the highest aspiration was liberty, and nothing you describe indicates a state seeking that. All this suggestion of ‘rights balancing’ and hero worship you ascribe to police is ridiculous, because police are here to employ social control, and to document and clean up messes, rather than to protect the rights of the People. If the law did not castrate the People, laymen would be the heroes, taking responsibility for their own security. Reliance on police is a STATE-SYNTHESIZED condition.
When I hear the officer drop the line about ‘the right to go home to one’s wife and children’, I know I hear from a tyrant, because in every case that would be said in ignorance of the right of the People to go home to their wives and children. What this says to me is that an officer will do what he wants, when he wants, rights of another be damned. Whatever allowance an officer thinks he has, his right ends where another’s begins.
I fear the government far more than any petty criminal with a firearm, so no, we should not be eternally vigilant in making sure some person not in jail may own a firearm, because that usurpation is far more disastrous. We would have to worry much less about those petty criminals in a world where the government did not castrate us (for its own ends), but we must always worry heavily about government.
In case you aren’t aware, open carry was once the honorable and honest manner of bearing arms, until the government oppressed and repressed it. Concealing arms was the prerogative of those about to do illicit harm, or lawmen. Grandma is afraid of arms today because the government has USURPED OUR RIGHTS. In what world are people more afraid of the arms they can see than those they cannot?
So Steve, please read the constitutions to which you took oaths again, because if you’re applying the same attitude you type here to your police work, criminal and civil complaints really ought to be stacking up upon you…
@Steve, I have not seen you address some excellent points made by a few people on here. As such, I can only conclude that you have made up your mind and are unwilling to look at reality. I doubt any good would come about by George meeting you in person. None of us here doubt that a cops job is dangerous. I am sure George understands this. But when cops put themselves in dangerous situations unnecessarily, that is their problem. And they do it all the time when they harass peaceful people, people who have not harmed anyone. Stopping someone for a “traffic violation” is harassing a peaceful person. Stopping someone for carrying a gun is harassing a peaceful person. Stopping someone for filming in a court is harassing a peaceful person. Cops also harass people for using some drugs (as determined unlawful by some men and women), for not having a proper license to do business, for paying for sex, for not paying taxes, etc., etc. You put yourselves in danger unnecessarily. And that is your problem, not ours. And George, I am sure, understands this perfectly, that your job is dangerous. But it is far more dangerous than need be, because you make it so. And this is why a lot of people on here do not respect cops.
Beautifully said, Brodie. I think copies, I mean cops should also understand the true meaning of the word “respect,” since they throw it around so frequently. “Respect” is derived from Latin. “Re” is a prefix which means “again.” “Spectare” is a Latin verb meaning “to look at, to view.” Thus the word “respect” means “to look at again” or “to take another look at.” It is cops who do not have any respect for THEMSELVES, for they refuse to TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT what they have become, and what they are being USED for. And make no mistake, YOU are being USED. And when your MASTERS are done USING with you for their objectives, you’ll be dumped like a useless TOOL.
But no amount of TELLING you that will EVER dissuade you from your mind-controlled course of action. You’ll have to EXPERIENCE it. You follow the program precisely as your programmers have input, and you never see the source code that RUNS you. Let’s cut through it. You ALL know. You PRETEND not to see, because the TRUTH is so ugly. You’re just like the S.S., who would unquestioningly follow their orders, no matter how IMMORAL they were, just for a PAYCHECK.
Just KEEP IN MIND when more and more un-Constitutional orders keep coming down, 2009 America is not 1930’s Germany.
But what do YOU know of history? You’ve never given it a moment’s thought as to how Hitler and his Reich could have taken total control over the minds of a population of an entire nation. That’s why you can’t see what is happening in THIS country today. You don’t BELIEVE there is any such thing as mind control. “The Occult doesn’t exist, because -I- don’t BELIEVE in it.” Hate to break it to you, but there are things in this world that don’t require YOUR BELIEF or YOUR understanding in order to EXIST and have INFLUENCE in your life.
The problem is, you’re un-read. That means you DON’T READ BOOKS. You watch the crap that’s pumped out over the idiot-box in your living rooms and think that garbage has anything to do with reality. The world is NOTHING LIKE what you THINK it is, little boys. That’s because you ate the propaganda up with a spoon like a goodie little kiddie.
I, for one, HAVE RESPECTED MYSELF. I took another long, hard look at the person I USED TO BE, a long time ago. And I made a LOT of CHANGES. And I’m STILL CHANGING. Taking in the right information helped me to make those changes. But if you think things are ok with the system we’re in now, you’re not changing, you’re not progressing – you’re just standing still. And that means you’re GOING NOWHERE. I don’t have ANY respect for people like that, and no one will tell me that I need to. Respect is something you do TO YOURSELF, FOR YOURSELF, by taking another look at WHO YOU ARE.
I, for one, won’t be pushed around by those who have NO RESPECT FOR THEMSELVES OR ANYONE ELSE, who never read a book worth reading in their entire lives, yet still think they are just as qualified to express an opinion about the state of the world as those who have engaged in ontology and epistemology for most of their lives (that means studying the nature of reality). I won’t be ruled by people who are high on the drug of CONTROL. I am a PEACEFUL and FREE, SOVEREIGN BEING. NO ONE OWNS ME.
NO ONE WILL OWN ME.
You have alot to learn. While you think it’s ok to carry on your hip did you ever consider the public alarm it might arouse? Those police were there because a citizen called and reported you because they themselfs were fearful. If you need a gun apply for a concealed weapon permit. As far as the police go they are allowed to enter your pockets for officer safety , you had a gun and a knife on you, it’s more than enough to legally enter your pockets. The I’d issue… When asked by an LEO for I’d you must MUST present it and yes it is a law, look up what a Terry stop is. You said you had a gun because you were fearfull for your saftey, yet you criticize the LEO for have extra mags on his belt, why shouldn’t he if Joe citizen is so scared in public that he needs a gun ? Are you stopping cars with unknown people or arresting addicts high on PCP or serving felony arrest warrants ? He needs them because it’s a tool to perform his job like a carpenter needs nails. You claim you were concerend for your son but denied telling them your wifes address when they asked a second time. If you really cared
about him you wouldn’t have tries to prove a point and made things difficut when you said you told them them the first time the address because you didn’t want your son to go to CYS so clearly you understood that they had the authority to do that yet you openly objected to helping them. You need to get your facts in order before you rant. Look up pa title 75 5503 . Your actions caused public alarm and inconvience and served no legititmate purpose, you should have been cited and lucky you weren’t. Your rights were not violated, the police had more than enough probable cause to investigate thia situation . If you put your beef aside with all things you assume are conservative and just spoke with the officer, let him do his job, you would have been out of there in 10 mins. A call for man with a gun is serious, don’t forget that officer has a family he wants to go home to too, he doesn’t know you from any other stranger on the street and he has to act accordingly and treat every situation as a real threat.
“Wow”, WOW, you are plain wrong and do NOT know what you are talking about. Read the following first before saying anything else if you don’t want to be laughed at again:
It was too late by then and they wouldn’t have taken him anyway.
Wrong. They have no such authority.
Any further insane comments like “Wow”‘s will not be published.
Hiram Abiff recently ( http://morelibertynow.com/asides/plymouth-pa-cops-assault-terrorize#comment-9304 ) made worthwhile points regarding the word “respect” and the nature of law enforcement officers as “tools”. His expressive methods are not mine, however, and I’m now sharing some thoughts with you, George, and other anti-Statists, that I noted to myself earlier last week, in the hopes that they will help in discussion of serious subjects with others, especially those who are supportive of the State.
Persuading a person to change his/her (hir) thinking – in contrast to changing actions – comes from that person having discovered (often with assistance) ideas that s/he then accepts as being better than those s/he previously held. Now that acceptance may be a result of truly understanding the principles involved and having integrated the new ones, replacing opposing old ones. Another possibility – and more likely with a person who is weak in critical thinking – may be change in some of hir thinking (as a start) and much of hir behavior as a result of having been socially preferenced against by a large number of those who highly value the ideas and behavior that this person has been reluctant to embrace, if not actually has refused to consider. (The more important and esteemable those who are doing the negative social preferencing are to the one being preferenced against, the greater the likelihood that this type of nonviolent social persuasion will be effective.)
Simply getting a person to *stop* doing some action (or perform another) can easily be done at the point of a gun, lash of a whip, shock of a taser, or threat of harm to a valued other person. All of these have and are done by the State but do nothing to alter a person’s actual held convictions on a subject matter (often referred to as “beliefs”).
A first question to ask someone who states, “I was raised to respect authority” (as did Karen C in http://morelibertynow.com/asides/plymouth-pa-cops-assault-terrorize#comment-9207 ) is “What type of authority?” It is important to keep in mind prior to asking this question that the only proper authority in a *free society* is that position of recognition of an individual granted by another as a result of producing something of great value to the one doing the granting or others. For instance I have recommended Gene Sharp’s writings on nonviolent political actions ( http://morelibertynow.com/asides/plymouth-pa-cops-assault-terrorize#comment-9217 ) and referred to him as an “authority” because of his large numbers of thoroughly detailed works on this important subject over many years. Of course many (?most?) people (likely even in the US) think of “authority” as that decreed by government (or a religious entity) – a person or agency to be *obeyed*. Gene Sharp’s authority derives from his knowledge and can be accepted or not by each individual; he has no ability to force agreement with his ideas or compliance with his recommended methods. In contrast, the State is all about physical force. (Most religious entities now use only ostracism or “eternal damnation” for disobedience to their edicts, having relinquished the use of physical force to the State.)
In conjunction with determining the type of “authority” to which the person is referring, is being sure what s/he means by “respect”, since this word has slightly different meanings.
1 obsolete : RESPITE, POSTPONE, NEGLECT
2 a obsolete (1) : CONSIDER, DEEM, HEED (2) : to look for : ANTICIPATE (3) : to look toward or at : front upon or toward (4) : to look upon b : to be depicted facing (as one another) — used of heraldic figures
3 a : to consider worthy of esteem : regard or treat with respect : ESTEEM, VALUE b : to refrain from obtruding upon or interfering with
4 : to have regard or reference to : relate to : be concerned with
intransitive verb : LOOK, FRONT, FACE — usually used in heraldry “respect.” Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (18 Oct. 2009).
Get the person to clearly state that s/he means “obey” – if that is what s/he *really* means, though that word is not included in Merriam-Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary online definition. It is close, however, to definition 2a which M-W maintains is obsolete. Or maybe it will be “honor” (a synonym included in M-W), but then what does that mean? In any case, logically the the next question to ask is “Why?” “*Why* do you respect (obey/honor/etc) this person/group?” In regard to “respecting” a group – in actuality only individuals can *earn* respect (as in honor), or lose it, because only individuals perform actions. But this is a separate (but related) subject with much to be said.
I think it is important to put the person in a position where s/he must do at least some thinking rather than simply state what s/he was “raised” to do. I suggest asking many “why?” questions, like those above, and to also present any and all contradictions resulting from what the person states and/or omits. It’s possible that in going through such an exchange, the person will actually recognize hir errors.
Most police have to justify their jobs. Here in Massachusetts, he would have been arrested and left with an eternal arrest record as a CRIMINAL OFFENDER, then denied a gun license, even if he were never convicted of anything.
I had a federal judge in Boston, Reginald Lindsey, tell me no one has the right to use the sidewalks in Massachusetts. I was collecting signatures on a candidates nomination in Bridgewater, Mass on a sidewalk on a STATE HIGHWAY, and the Bridgewater police told me I had no right to stand there. Though I had no federal subject matter, the case was moved to federal court where judge Lindsey summarily dismissed it for lack of federal subjent matter.
So how did it get to federal court in the first place?
Justice is just an illusion in the USA.
Kitty, that is brilliant. I will work that into my tactics. Thank you.
That’s weird Don, sorry to hear about it.
Mate what do you expect the police to do, what you describe in no way constitutes assault.I bet if a guy hadda walked into the park with a gun and shot your kid you would be screamin wheres the cops? why wasnt this guy stopped all the b/s. I am pro gun, but to walk into a park with a hosltered weapon,
First off, Andrew, you’re from Oz and so keep in mind we’re quite a bit freer than you up here. Up here, we take walks in our parks with our firearms whenever we darned well feel like and even the government hasn’t outlawed that (in Pennsylvania).
Second, no I would not be screaming about where’s the cops. I am a voluntaryist. We do not call on aggression (cops) to meet our needs.
Andrew – what did he expect the cop to do??
I’d say, approach George and use some normal human intellect and critical thinking to determine that he WASNT a terrorist, or child kidnapper or crazy.
I would certainly hope that the police force is trained and coherant enough to determine that some crazy guy who kidnaps kids wouldnt just mosey into a park to relax with one of his victims. AND, I’d hope the cop would realize after observing him for 3 -7 minutes, that there was no issue and move on. Id also expect any reasonably intelligent person(probably my first mistake) to realize that IF he treats George with some amount of respect and decency, he just might be an asset to the local cops. Just think with the unbrainwashed part of your mind for 2 seconds. Take a small community like this and have 10 – 20 dads just like George doing this. If I was a cop there, I’d be like, ya open carry all you want. That way as the REAL scum bags of our society who really ARE dangerous, came through the neighborhood and “cased” it to see if there’s loot to get and people to vicitmize, they’d see these guys and MOVE ON!! I’ll bet it would work.
You can’t trust the police, I have encountered, police robbing me, illegal entry, thinly veiled threats ad infinitum, one was a state officer pulled me over near Chicago, got in the passengers side and said “you know I could do anything I want to you out here!” I pushed my face into his and said “You better call your f*cking buddies” he giggled! I have no police history to speak of, am law abiding, etc. It is going to get worse, one has to make one’s own decisions about how to handle each situation.
Stone, I like how you think and I’d love to live in a community like that!
William, sorry to hear about that but kudos on your courage. Nice link there btw. :)
Thanks for commenting guys.
Heres another one. Any of you coppers want to justify this crap.
THIS!!! THIS!! is what my tax dollars is going to, for these idiots to do?? harass kids WALKING and CARRYING their skateboards??
“Not planning a lawsuit” Then you’re a coward and deliberately enable this sort of unlawful actions. At the very least, call the attorney general and press charges, file a complaint, and speak to a lawyer – many have free consultations.
Just letting this go doesn’t do anything but encourage armed thuggery by these criminals.
Just to respond to this comment of yours:
“Any further insane comments like “Wow”’s will not be published.”
I know my comment won’t get published, but I’m going to write it anyways to at least YOU have to read it.
I think it’s sad, almost to the point of ironically funny, that you complain about your rights of carrying an open weapon are being questioned, but then you turn around and start censoring the free speech of others.
You don’t have free speech on other people’s property. This is a basic insight all trolls are unable to grasp.
@Joseph, if George owns the gun, and if George is part of the public, and if George is on supposedly public property, where does a cop derive the authority to tell George what to do, when the cops own rules state that there is nothing wrong with carrying openly? Since George owns the blog, that gives him the authority to censor posts. Duh.
Careful George. He might go vote and lobby politicians to force his “rights” on you.
Personally I think your “attitude” is why you evently got put in cuffs.
He asked if I had ID and I asked him if I was legally required to give it. He said it would make it easier or some other nonsense so I did not give it. Looking back, had I reached for it I might be in jail or worse right now since my pistol was on the same side as my wallet. Later he claimed that I refused to cooperate in his “investigation”
The LEO was investigating a supposed call of “man with a gun” you basically shrugged off his approach with the abouve comment. As a person who has carried for years, your mentally about dealing with people has to be completely different than when not “carrying’. You mentality was “how dare you, doubt me.” His mindset was that he was doing his job and you hendered that.
Instead of being confrontational how would it have worked if you explained that you were a licensed permit holder but you choose to open carry (which I don’t understand. You like attention?” My I.D. is in my pocket by my weapon.
Slaves got branded and Jews wore their gold stars without complaint. Just like gutless gun owners today who proudly carry their permission slips next to their pistols, so both can be neatly confiscated at the same time by any thug with a big ego.
What matters is that he had no business bothering me, even by his own rules.
Here is another perfect example of the difference between Peace Persons(think volunteer firemen) as opposed to Law Enforcers(think municipal firemen paid via gunpoint taxation/theft/robbery).
If Peace Persons were curious or concerned then they would engage you with courtesy and equality. Their claim of disarming you for their safety is without merit since they are frequently surrounded by human beings with all sorts of concealed-from-view tools which might well be used for good or might well be used for bad.
Even if we have videos of this sort of activity and we produce educational video showing how Peace Persons would have behaved differently, we still wouldn’t overcome the Law Enforcer mentality in BOTH the minds of the leos and mere common folk.
This is largely due to the massive amounts of main stream media programming and subterfuge. Look as the vast array of cop/law-order/bad-boys/court-drama/etc. shows produced to keep the sheeple effectively hypnotized and zombified.
If you read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged and Tom Baugh’s Starving The Monkeys you will begin to understand that the mobocracy encompasses virtually everyone these days. Moreso now in Amerika since the last significant domestic battles were the Northern Aggression and the British Aggression.
Please, from the very bottom of our hearts, please read and assist us in promoting Starving The Monkeys!
John and Dagny Galt
Atlas Shrugged and Starving The Monkeys, Owners Manuals For The Universe!(tm)
I’m sorry, but growing up in rural PA/MD I never once carried a fire arm. On top of that I have lived in numerous American Cities and never carried a fire arm. Why is this so necessary to you? It only scares the 95% of us that don’t carry weapons, on top of that are you expecting to be shot at in a rural park? That happens so often in America. The disassociation with society is disturbing.
What was your claim against Obama? You don’t believe he’s a citizen? For someone so persistent about a person’s right, you’d be hard press to find a right for him to NOT be president. A simple read of the US Constitution folds all claims in that department.
Also, to the poster with the comment about Atlas Shrugged — um, you do know that Rynd built a fictional presence in that book as the only way to define her reality, correct?
Again, if you take that stuff to heart, I do feel for you.
My use of a firearm is my business alone unless I fire it inappropriately. That is the American way.
What are you talking about re Obama? Reference something or admit you’re making it up.
So if something scares you, it should be illegal?
What would America be without all the trolls and anti-gun zealots? Free, you say?
I don’t know why people like Rob take pride in not taking responsibility for their own security. People like George don’t need a reason. People unlike George, who believe in a limited constitutional government, already have a primary reason to always be armed: for the deterrence of tyranny. Whatever ‘scares’ ‘95% of people’ is less ‘evil’ or ‘harmful’ than the tyrants who now oppress us.
I personally find George underarmed, at least from a tyranny-deterrence perspective. I feel one should have at least as many arms available to him as the tyrant who comes to face him. As a middle ground, think “Il Duce” on Boondock Saints… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KCzK9pWQDo For example, what happens when you ‘keep’ all your arms at your castle, and then a tyrant secures that castle from you? How many arms do you have left to bear?
Rob is just being a good slave and practicing what he learned in school. Yay Rob, keep paying those taxes so you can feel safe! We’ll keep our guns close so that we are safe.