If fascism is coming to America, it’s the Tea Party that’s bringing it. Some would have us believe that the Tea Party is anti-government. They’re just anti-this-government. Whenever the Republicans are out of power, these folks start in on a free market spiel. Government this, government that. What we see however is that, once they are in power again, the GOP grows government. See, for example, Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes. These hypocrites cover their big governmentism with free market talk. The Tea Party is simply a convenient marketing campaign.
The Tea Party is not a libertarian movement. It co-opted a libertarian message, but in reality it is a rightist movement. It’s pro-war, intolerant, ultra-patriotic, pro-torture, into corporate apologism and ready to scapegoat paperless immigrants. As soon as the GOP recaptures the gun that is government, I expect these people will go back to sleep.
Libertarianism, on the other hand, is a consistently peaceful position. We’re against war, we don’t care much about those imaginary dotted lines on the map called borders and we recognize that the evils of corporatism are borne of the state. We don’t oppose government only when people we dislike are in power. We seek to solve the problems liberals worry about with more peaceful means than state mandates. We’re not like those Tea Party folks. And you can see this in the above video where a libertarian is violently removed from a Tea Party event!
If the economy continues downhill, people will seek a strong man, someone with a plan who will get us out this mess. This person will right the wrongs and restore America to its former greatness – or so he’ll promise. The Tea Party is well positioned to ride this sentiment into power in 2010 and 2012. With their neo-con lust for global domination, their blindness to the unfettered power of state-backed corporations and their failure to accept the impracticality of the state, they are more likely than any other movement to bring fascism to these shores.
Libertarians are wise to forge alliances with the left. With them we have a little more tolerance, respect for civil liberties and the very important repulsion to war. Together we can find market-based solutions to the social problems they are concerned about. These Tea Party people only distort our message and erode our momentum. We need to make clear that Tea Party does not equal libertarian.
UPDATE: If this post intrigued you, you will want to check out Is the Tea Party Corporate Astroturfing?.
Photo credit: fibonacciblue. Photo license.
69 replies on “The Tea Party Could Bring Fascism to America”
Well said sir. I’ve been raising the red flag on this as well. Look for Hitler in heels at the end of this road…
Good post, George. Though some individuals within the Tea Party movement may be good folks who want to work for genuine freedom, the overall character of the Tea Party is certainly negative. Witness for example the Tea Party response to Red and Black Cafe booting a uniformed cop.
Have you seen my Tea Party related posts?
http://darianworden.com/blog/2010/04/tea-party-notes/
http://darianworden.com/blog/2009/10/ron-paul-and-preventing-a-fascist-future/
Great article. Most of the tea party’ers are seriously confused.
The Tea Party might bring fascism?..
Exactly what is it called again when the Government takes over GM, The Banking system, bloats its children who rule the housing bubble Fanny Mae and Freddi Mack, the forcing if citizens to buy a corporate health care insurance?
What rock have ya been hiding under – It is too late, we are fascist NOW!
This is typical know it all response to the Tea Party. They think they know but they have no clue. These know it all speak out of their ARSE and have no idea.
I was involved when the initial National meetings being set up. The Tea Party hated George Bush for the Bail Out package. We hated Bush for Prescription drug benefit. The next thing this moron fails to realize is that We are pro-SMALL government. PERIOD.
Finally FASCISM is a form of total government Like a Socialist form. Rather they are both Oligarchies. The TOTAL GOVERNMENT that are typically rules by a few people. The Tea Parties are for SMALL LIMITED GOVERNMENT and more Liberties for the INDIVIDUAL
This article could not be further from the truth. As anyone who has been paying attention would know, the tea party movement began as a result of being dissatisfied with the two headed leviathan known as the republicandemocrat party. To accuse the tea party of fascism smacks of an agenda. Excluding the infiltrators who are now known as teocons, my experience with the tea party orgs and people is that we/they continue to follow the principles Dr. Paul has laid down: limited constitutional government, non-intervention foreign policy, sound currency, end the Fed, and increase individual liberty and freedom according to the principles laid down by our founders. To not see this is to either be a plant with an agenda, or a sheeple. Which are you?
The Tea Party has been around longer than Obama has been in office. Nice try though. It’s only more prominent now because Obama has expanded government so aggressively that it’s woken most of America up.
I do like how you think being in favor of illegal immigration is somehow a Libertarian idea though. Not to mention your absolutely baseless claim that the Tea Party is pro-war.
Is fascism already here? Some elements of it. The Tea Party people have the potential to finish the job.
War, torture and strictly-controlled borders with papers-please laws are NOT compatible with small government.
All forms of government are forms of oligarchy. It is simply a sliding scale, with limited government being near the less pernicious end. Nevertheless, it is oligarchy. What’s more, once you accept that some government is ok, you fall into a trap. More and more government inevitably gets piled on as time goes on.
We all have an agenda. Every individual on the planet has “a list or program of things to be done or problems to be addressed.” It may be written down or simply in the mind. It may be achieved through peaceful means or aggression. But everyone has one. Mine is completely liberty and complete responsibility.
Your last thought there, Phil W, is a logical fallacy. See here for a complete explanation of the false dichotomy fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy_fallacy
Great article, Maracucho. :-) My experience with the Valley Forge Patriots- Tea Party Conservatives would indicate that they’re not libertarian. I got kicked out for advocating peace & liberty on their Meetup mailing list. Here’s a good sampling of the debates:
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8814395/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8812052/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8812152/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8812165/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8751524/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8660373/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8654408/
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8496851/
They also believed every goofy email that came down the pike.
Here’s just one:
http://www.meetup.com/VFP-TeaParty09/messages/8675624/
Darren, great comment. The original sources are interesting. Thank you.
Ripplemagne, IIRC the Tea Party gained serious force when Obama was elected. In fact, Wikipedia backs up my recollection that there was no significant Tea Party action before Obama’s election:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement
Or at least, if there was, it was libertarian-ish then.
If you think Tea Partiers are anti-war, by all means drop some evidence on me bro.
Your phrasing is curious. I recognize the inherent human right to freely associate with others on a voluntary basis. Many of these people without enough or the right kind of state papers have legitimate voluntary associations with other people round these parts that do have what the state admits are the right papers. It’s a question of freedom of association and IIRC that’s still in the constitution somewhere.
I think the Tea Parties, for the most part, started out as a basic movement against Cleptocracy and the Fed. Now they’re the Sarah Palin/Glenn Beck/Newt Gengrich Parrot Party. You’re entirely right, they’ll do just what all parties in power do: grab for more power.
Even the Libertarian and Constitution parties will do this. It’s how politics work. All politicians, whatever their motives, will eventually become power mongers. Look at Rand Paul, who’s biggest claim to fame is his father. He’s not even close to being libertarian. He’s a Reganite and probably wouldn’t even vote for his father’s bills against the Fed or eliminating foreign military bases.
It’s all a show to keep everyone occupied while they continue their pillaging.
Whoever wrote this is a RETARD. BIG GOVERNMENT is on the Left while small government is on the right regardless of what the party name is. Republicans are LEFTISTS while Libertarians are just left of the Constitution but far RIGHT of Democracy. While Constitutionalists are center but usually portray more Anarchist views. Helps to know WTF one is talking about when it comes to the Political Spectrum. Anarcho Capitalists are the farthest right one can go and just left of them are Agorists then Anarcho Communists (bet you didn’t know there was such a thing huh) The US Constitution is the MIDDLE of Politics. Democracy has always been, is and always will be the starting point and building block of Dictators. Democracy aka DEMON-OLIGARCHY is what the Forefathers warned us about and tried to keep us from becoming.
Though I agree with you that the Tea Party has been co-opted by the Republican Party it’s a mistake to form an alliance with the left. Forming an alliance with the left would be little better than forming an alliance with the right. Just as the right is not libertarian no more is the left. I’ll take what’s good from either side but for me to go to one side or the other is to renounce everything I believe in. Leftists want big government just as much as Neocons, they just want a different kind of big government. They want to regulate the living daylight out of everything. They want to control all food production. They want to force health care down my throat and control what I can and can’t say, even if they want to limit my speech in different ways than the right does. If they cared about civil liberties they wouldn’t skip the one that says the state can’t mess with my right to bear arms. They tend to worship the state like nobody’s business just as easily as the right does and even more so. They want the country run by unions and union bosses. They want to regulate every aspect of business. It was a great leftist president that started this country on the road to socialism, created the welfare state that we find ourelves in and sold our country’s treasury to foreign banks, while throwing innocent Japanese Americans into internment camps. They tend to be anti-war when a Republican is in the White House but when a Democrat is in the White House you hear hardly a peep out of them about war.
Take a look around. We’re in a fascism right now. And look who’s sitting in the White House and who’s dominating both houses. It ain’t Republicans. Obama’s been in office for 19 months now. It might be just a little past time to forget the last dictator we had and start looking at the one we have in there now. I suspected that the left was infiltrating the libertarian movement for some time but this is the first time I heard someone come right out and say it.
How left would you like to go? Hugo Chavez? Pol Pot? Joseph Stalin? Holy cow.
This is the most ridiculous assertion ever
All the post that states fascism in the Teaparty, all of you are the trouble makers,and you know it..
It has been Obama ,Bush boath of them,Clinton.
That where and are the cause of the ression.
Like childern this amminstration blames bush.
Obama of course hasn’t helped anything with his failed polices .
It’s been 18 months Nothing has gotten better and won’t till we put
the common man in these offices with term limites and hold every one accountable.
Don’t know which Tea Party meeting you attended Pal, but, the one’s I’ve been to advocate Our Constitution, Our Bill of Rights, Our Freedoms, Our Freedom of choice, Our Freedom of Speech and all the other rights associated with Our American way of life.
No, not all of us believe everything that comes down the pike via the internet but, what we can’t stand is some liberal or progressive trying to shove their way of thinking down our throats or running their chops so much that another person can not get a word in edgeways (Motor Mouths).
I’ve seen this alot, many TPers Ive come across credit statists like Limbaugh and Beck for the movement while having a huge disdain for Dr. Paul because “He is a terrorist appeaser” and other slogans. Many of them are pro-war and are beating the Iran War drum but when you ask them if they have ever fought or been in the sand their response “Your a Obama-bot”. However not all are like that, there are TPers who are true to Ron Paul’s ideas but the Neocons are trying to make sure that we are regulated to the back.
MilitantLibertarian, great comment.
American Insurgent, big government is on the left and republicans are leftists? That’s a quirky little political spectrum you came up with. But I suppose the logic works out somehow.
Maggie, libertarians are a very small bunch. We need to work on expanding our numbers, reach and influence. Working with someone doesn’t mean we become them, it simply means we collaborate as far as our principles allow. You’ve drawn a caricatured picture of what working together means. Working together as equals doesn’t mean we give up ourselves in the process.
Also Maggie you seem to suffer from theyism. “They” want to do this, “they” want to do that. Who are these dastardly “they”?
Your final line Maggie is a ridiculous strawman. If you know anything about liberty, you should know that it is anti-authoritarian. Chavez, Stalin et al are authoritarians.
Patricia, why will term limits fix the problem?
Bill, did you watch the video? That right there is a solid example of what I am talking about.
How can I have freedom of choice, Bill, if I’m not allowed to choose to associate with people who don’t have the right kind of papers? (Some call them “illegal immigrants.”)
So Bill are you sure you’re not like those progressives you rail against? Are you not shoving something down people’s throats? To wit, the constitution. What if I want to opt out of it? Are you going to allow that?
Thanks for commenting, LibertarianBlue.
Another hit piece by the panicked left because they have nothing to sell but ignorance and fear. We “normal American’s” are on to these disgusting tactics so this old Alinsky spin just doesn’t work anymore…….George. Here is your problem……..George, and all you cool aid drinking “George’s” out there……you have an agenda but you have no message, no legitimate argument or substance to stand on. Every one of you are morally and factually bankrupt. That being said, you Alinsky disciples just mindlessly attack; say anything, do anything, just do it LOUD and with GREAT PASSION even though it’s senseless, baseless and without a shred of merit. I’ve often wondered how the “left” and “right” acquired these names. Well, I’ve found the defining answer……George. You delusional zealot’s are tagged and bagged in the Bible…..that’s right…..George , IN THE BIBLE FOR ALL TO SEE IN ECCLESIASTES 10:2 & 3 (NIV)! Here it is stated “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Even as he walks along the road the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is.” It’s there……..George, look it up! Now……George, if you and your moon-bat buddies have a problem with God’s Word, take that up with God. But, stop assaulting the wonderful and courageous people of the Tea Parties for trying to clean up the monumental mess “left” by you “leftist” brain dead morons.
Being a Libertarian TPer myself, I hope youre wrong. Yes, there are some people that dont know the difference between the free market and fascism. There are some people who think Bush was a good president. But I think for the MOST part, the people who affiliate with the Tea Party just want the government out of their lives, no matter the form. Be it Police state or welfare state, or just a big bureaucracy and huge debt. And then beyond that, dont very much care, or aren’t very well educated in politics and the economy. Most people probably dont know what Crony Capitalism is. A form of “soft fascism” as Ron Paul said. Few realize that fascism is another form of socialism. Thats why the fascist nazi party was “National socialist party”. When business is government, its fascism. When government is business, is socialism.
What im HOPING will happen is that Glenn Beck will move more towards Ron Paul, and shun Sarah Palin. Hes been moving in the right direction for years. But I dont know. He seems so set in the idiot that is Sarah Palin. Despite all the things said about him, he is good at informing people of history. If he would just inform the people of the dangers of fascism and nation building…
Of course I do, Ken. My message is peace and freedom. My foundation is the inherent right of all human beings to be treated with respect, ie without aggression. Do you respect that right?
btw Ken, is your comment a parody? If so, great job. You’ve clearly demonstrated the cacophony of the Tea Party milieu. You tell me what I said is wrong, but you don’t say why. You quote the bible to support your point in a way that may or may not be what the original meaning is. Not to mention, where is your evidence that the bible is authored by someone other than fellow human beings?
BlackSand, interesting comment, but is it rational to build your plan for the future on hoping some pundit will do the right thing?
As for those not wanting to “align with the left,” I’ve got a little story you might want to read. It’s from reality, not some made-up land of politics.
Back in 2002 I was your basic “extreme right wing” libertarian Republican. I had left the GOP because I knew they were not really Republicans (as I understood them) any longer. I joined the Libertarian Party because they were almost perfectly aligned with my thoughts at the time. After attending a few meetings, I realized that the LP was just a glorified debate club that cost $25/year to join. Nobody was actually doing anything.
During that time, I attended a political rally at the behest of my neighbor, “Militia Bob.” The rally was regarding the then-new USA PATRIOT Act. It was put on by some local radio personality I’d never heard of on a station I’d only rarely listened to. I heard the message, but was more interested in the rally itself. It was made up of the usual kooks that attend such badly-publicized events, but the dynamic was interesting.
Later, I met that radio guy at a party a mutual friend was having. We hit it off immediately. His name is Dale Williams and he still has his show, the last of the truly liberty-oriented broadcast radio shows, FreeWestRadio.com. (I run his website)
We talked about his rally and I told him what I thought should have been done to make it better. Having like minds, we decided to put together another one. In the mean time, I read the entire USAPA and Homeland inSecurity bills with all relevant references.
We held a rally in 2003. One of the largest that Salt Lake City, Utah had ever seen. Why? Because I didn’t just go to the usual suspects to recruit people for the cause. I started attending ACLU meetings, spent time at a coffee shop and got invited to a Unitarian Church meeting to speak, got on NPR, got in front of some youth groups at a couple of Mormon churches, etc., etc. In other words, I left my political comfy zone and went to talk to people outside of it. I made inroads and friends at the Constitution Party (libertarians and CPers can get along, just don’t bring up abortion or God), the Republican Liberty Caucus, the Democratic Business Alliance, and more.
I didn’t change my position on anything, only my marketing for what I was interested in pushing: anti-USAPA and pro-Bill of Rights ideas. I changed my sales pitch, but not the message.
Now, of course, I’m not longer in Utah, no longer a Libertarian, and no longer wasting time with politics. Those are for different reasons and have everything to do with my realization that we aren’t going to change the system using the system.
That’s the most basic flaw of the whole movement (Tea Party or anything with “Party” in the name). The system is set up in such a way and has been manipulated to operate in such a fashion that you CANNOT change it towards liberty. You can ONLY add more weight to the already fattened system.
Darian, good observations. You point out that the “small gov” GOP
when in power added more gov and debt on the people. This is true of
both Dems and GOP.
Now the next ugly fact that needs to be put in black and white is that
our debts (at fed, state, local) has been going up since the end of the
1940s. And both parties (and so-call independents) have their hand
soaked with the red ink of our deficit/debt spending.
Lets pay off OUR debts and lower gov spending and size at fed, state,
and local levels.
Thanks and Good Luck…Here’s to our “Republic”…
Frank, why is it your debt? Did you sign for it? Did you agree to it? If there’s no contract with your signature on it, then it’s not your debt. Why should you or I pay someone else’s debt?
FASCISM? Do you know what the term even is DEFINED AS? Idiot, FASCISM is the merger of big corporations with government. It’s HERE. “Here” is a word that means “WITH NOW”, “AT THIS POINT”. This assertion is WELL DOCUMENTED: http://FreedomToFascism.com (Where have you been for the last 5 years?)!
“Whenever the Republicans are out of power, these folks start in on a free market spiel.”
How can you even make a statement like this when the Tea Party is a relatively new movement? If you had done your homework you would have known that the Tea Party started as a grassroots organization of people in opposition to the Wall St. bailout and socialized healthcare scheme that the current administration has foisted upon us. Unfortunately, Sarah Palin and others have successfully hijacked this movement, and just like every other organization that forms in resistance to big government, it has been co-opted and thrown off its original intent. This happens time and time again, and unfortunately people never learn. And by the way, fascism isn’t coming to America. It’s already here.
MilitantLibertarian, excellent comment, thank you!
Curt, is this another parody? And, AGAIN (did you and Andy read the comments before commenting?), yes some aspects of fascism are here but the Tea Party has the potential to finish the job.
I watched Freedom to Fascism more than 2 years ago and found it interesting but weak.
http://morelibertynow.com/opinion/freedom-to-fascism-raises-as-many-questions-as-answers
Andy, these same Tea Party people existed before they started marketing themselves as the Tea Party. I know how the Tea Party started, and it has NOTHING to do with the thesis I present in this article.
These negative comments evince a serious lack of logic, debate and critical thinking ability. If there’s one message I could send to Tea Partiers, it’s this: read relevant academic works, write about them in a critical way and discuss it all in a reasoned manner without ad hominem and common logical fallacies. This would take you a long way towards success.
The Tea Party does not want the old GOP back. GW Bush can rot in hell for all we care. I’m Libertarian and I’m not afraid of the Tea Party. Bush trashed the image of the GOP after 9-11 by growing government. Obama is growing it even faster. From the time the Constitution was ratified until 2009, the national debt grew to $5 trillion. Obama has now nearly tripled that in 19 months.
You’re no Libertarian. You’re a scared little fear mongering liberal who is attempting to derail the Tea Party.
ummmm.
The whole thing is so obvious they used Bush to bring in ohbama and they will use the teapers to close the door on freedom.
freedom is a mis nomer we were born slaves the keepers own it all.
Gary, I have no problem with the descriptors of liberal, progressive, leftist, socialist. They’re meaningless unless you talk about the authority vs liberty axis anyway. Where are you on that axis? Authoritarian or libertarian? If you still claim to be the latter, are you for free association? The ability to opt out of government? Please enlighten me.
Kevin who are “they”?
Not sure really there are many opinions about who “they” are.
My best guess is the ones who control the money.
central bankers, .Folks with lots of the earths resources under their control.
If I knew I would probably be one.
The best rulers are ones who don’t come out in the light ,but they use political and religious figures to keep people divided into camps.
We can talk all day about where we are or what we believe but the common thread that binds us all into the system is the medium of exchange, whoever runs that runs the show.( my opinion of course.)
Using “they” to refer to the complex process that produces power today strikes me as simplistic and a little paranoid. It might be more productive to say who exactly it is you think is causing a particular problem.
“…libertarians are a very small bunch. We need to work on expanding our numbers, reach and influence. Working with someone doesn’t mean we become them, it simply means we collaborate as far as our principles allow. You’ve drawn a caricatured picture of what working together means. Working together as equals doesn’t mean we give up ourselves in the process.”
Rather ironic of you to say that I’ve drawn a caricatured picture, George. I believe that’s what you did when you lumped all Tea Partiers into one big Neocon soup, whether they belong there or not. To say that the Tea Party will bring fascism doesn’t make any sense, anyway. We already have fascism. Some are advocating continuing the fascism. Some want something quite different.Why couldn’t we ally ourselves with those Tea Partiers that do want something different?
“Also Maggie you seem to suffer from theyism. “They” want to do this, “they” want to do that. Who are these dastardly “they”?”
The dastardly “they” are progressives, modern liberals, communists, socialists, liberal fascists, like Obama, Pelosi, Holdren, Janet Napolitano, Sebelius, Holder, Jesse Jackson, etc. and their followers. “They” is the modern liberal left who will put a gun to your head and force you to pay taxes for whatever agenda they have at the moment. “They” are lying in bed with corporations just a much as any Republican. It might be a war agenda. It might be a carbon trading scheme. It might be on forced government health care. It might be on expanding a national Naziesque mandatory public school system. These same “theys” also like to spy on people who don’t agree with them, label them terrorists, and report them to law enforcement — like the Southern Poverty Law Center and the ADL.
“Your final line Maggie is a ridiculous strawman. If you know anything about liberty, you should know that it is anti-authoritarian. Chavez, Stalin et al are authoritarians.”
Kind of like the argument you presented in your article, George? The one that says the Tea Party will bring fascism to America?
Anyway, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between Obama and his supporters and Chavez and his supporters. Ask Darren about some of the fascists on OpEd News. :)
The thing is, in the end, I don’t think progressives were what Murray Rothbard had in mind when he called himself a left-libertarian. You can form your alliance with them if you like. I think it’s a waste of time. Being a small group isn’t a good enough reason for me to lose my integrity and group with the left anymore than with the right.
Congrats, George. They liked your article so much at OpEdNews.com that they headlined it: http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Tea-Party-Could-Bring-by-George-Donnelly-100820-839.html
Darren that is hilarious. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes out of that.
Maggie, I didn’t say all Tea Parties are neocons. There you go again with the distortion. I talked about the Tea Party and by that I references the general trend of the whole thing, not 100% of the individuals involved.
For the THIRD time: the US governments have SOME elements of fascism. The Tea Party has the potential to finish the job. IOW, to complete the job. There is only the potential for complete fascism right now, and the Tea Party has the makings of realizing that potential.
I never said it was impossible to ally with Tea Partiers who get liberty. I’d really love to meet one. Frankly I’ve been beating my head against the rightist wall now for awhile and am tiring of it.
This is typical of the hyperopia of the right. They’re so immersed in the partisan game of vilifying their imagined opposition that they fail to see the log in their own eyes. The right also puts “a gun to your head and force[s] you to pay taxes for whatever agenda they have at the moment.” For example: war, border enforcement and the constitution.
You’ve got a real enemies list there but my point is that it’s less than productive to talk about what “they” are doing. It’s better to be specific in each case.
If you think some argument I made is fallacious, point it out.
Again you caricature what I said, even after I went to some trouble to make myself clearer. Outreach and seeking to work with others whose ideas don’t 100% match with yours is not the same thing as compromising your integrity. Read comment #22. It’s just the kind of thing I’m talking about.
http://morelibertynow.com/libertarian/tea-party-fascism-america/comment-page-1/#comment-10378
You know, George, I predicted that you’d make the comment about the right and taxes that you made. My answer is “no shit”.
What arguments did you make that are fallacious? Everything you said reeks either of leftist propaganda or an inability to see reality for what it is. Your statements concerning the left are just plain false. Like this statement: “If fascism is coming to America, it’s the Tea Party that’s bringing it.” Eh, no, sorry, George it’s both parties that are bringing it.
You accuse me of being a right-winger but it’s ridiculous. I haven’t argued for the right. I only pointed out that the left is off the wall just as much as the right. I’ve been an anarchist my whole life. I have always hated both sides equally and unreservedly. You asked who is the “they”. I told you who the “they” is. What the hell? Then, after being pretty damned specific you tell me it’s best to be specific in each case. What the hell does that mean? Why don’t you be specific in each case with Tea Partiers?
I’ll tell you something else. I’ve befriended a few lefties in the last few years and tried to find common ground with them and was told by them that there was none. You may be right about the head-banging to find a conservative to agree with but I’m equally tired of banging my head to find a leftie to agree with, with the exception of radical environmentalists like Sea Shepherd, etc.
More false statements: “Libertarians are wise to forge alliances with the left. With them we have a little more tolerance, respect for civil liberties and the very important repulsion to war.”
Leftists are not repulsed by war unless it’s a Republican who’s waging the war. Where are all the big anti-war demonstrations now? Democrats are war-mongers, too. Let’s see Bill Clinton, Lyndon Johnson, Harry Truman, FDR. (I don’t believe I’m needing to spell this out for you.) There isn’t any more respect for civil liberties from the left than there is from the right. Most leftists would love to relieve you of your right to carry a gun or a knife. Are you not aware of this? They have no more respect for freedom of speech than does the right. I’m not arguing for the right. I’m arguing against your statements. And if you had read what I wrote more carefully, or had you been more honest, you would have seen that.
YOU MADE THOSE STATEMENTS, GEORGE. READ WHAT YOU WROTE. THEY’RE FALSE.
Mr. Donnelly, please let me explain myself. I am not a Democrat or Republican. I am not left wing or Right wing. I am not in the middle.
What I am Sir, is a retired Military Veteran. I retired as a CSM (E-9). I spent 31 years fighting and defending this Great Country against all enemies both foreign and domestic and almost died 4 times in the process. I do not agree with giving amnesty to illegals for the simple fact that my wife is a legal immigrant to this Country. She came through the front door, she spent her time, she has taken the test and is now a U.S. Citizen. The people that are here illegally should be found and deported back to their native Country.
As for showing I.D. to the legal authorities, I’ve been doing that for years my friend and just because a person looks different than I do does not give him or her a special free pass.
You and the rest of the folks on this blog that support the “Socialist” in The White House, The Congress and The Senate need to catch the next flight to Cuba. Progressive = Socialism, same people different title. Yes, I will defy anyone that tries to deny me my rights. I fought for them, I spilled for them and I will live my rights to the fullest extent that The Constitution allows and will let no one take them away from me.
Here’s a few questions for you pal. How many armed battles have you fought for your Country? How many uniforms have you ever worn for your Country? How many times have you actually sat down and read The United States Constitution and all it’s supporting documents, then attempted to understand them? I would venture to say never. One never truely knows Freedom until One has to fight for it!!!!!!!!!
No, sorry. NOT everything you said reeks of leftist propaganda. Your second and third statements are right on the money.
Well, Bill, thank you for taking employment by the military and working that job for 31 years. You took the job, you did it, you came home alive. Bravo.
Your blind ignorance, inability to read the written word, and even your inability to watch a video that’s less than five minutes long show that you didn’t learn many practical things during your “service.” Sorry, it’s not really service if you get paid for it.
As for who’s “fought for this country,” that’s another sham. My wife was in the U.S. Navy, my brother-in-law is in the Air Force, my father was U.S. Army during the Vietnam draft, and countless others bearing my name or likeness have also been in the military, fighting and dying for this nation’s government, but rarely for its people.
If I were to tell you that I ranked E-3 and galavanted around the world in the name of Bill Clinton, would you think differently of my opinion when I say that the Constitution, the government, and the immigration process are all bullshit? Or would you say that I’m somehow more qualified to make that judgment because I had been in the trenches somewhere, cowering in a fox hole or getting something blown off during a “routine patrol?”
Having done that or not done that makes no difference. I’ve read the Constitution, Madison’s notes during its creation, the Articles of Confederation which it replaced, the writings of the Confederates, the writings of many others such as Thomas Paine, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and more.
I understand the Constitution and what it’s supposed to stand for and what it was meant to accomplish. The day General Washington became President Washington and the first Congress took its seats, the Constitution became a piece of paper with no teeth and was immediately torn to shreds. Hamilton ground it down with his First Bank, then came the Whiskey Rebellion, the Alien and Sedition Acts, and finally came Lincoln and his utter destruction of whatever was left of the shreds of the Constitution.
Your precious military infected my wife with multiple lifelong injuries because someone wanted to test a new Anthrax vaccine during the first Gulf War. Your precious military, which you “served” for a paycheck, uses up half of the taxes I’m forced to pay (or ELSE) so that they can have fun little gadgets, globe-hopping adventures, and make their vendors rich beyond measure. Your precious military has taken my friend, who was a champion kickboxer and a person who’d never had a problem in his life and turned him into a drunken vegetable who can’t say the word “Iraq” without crying. Your precious military has destroyed the lives of countless millions of young men and women all in the name of “defending” the politicians and their monied interests. Only very, very rarely were they defending the people of this nation.
I suggest you pick up a copy of General Smedley Butler’s (USMC) War is a Racket. He outranked you so obvious knew more than you do. At least by your way of thinking, Mr. E-9.
Shove your military bravado up your bunghole and go somewhere else to get your free drinks. I’ve seen war, I’ve seen what it does to people, and I’ve see a-holes like you who punched their tickets and got to the top and then spent the rest of their (retired) lives bragging about what they didn’t likely do. You get no respect from me based purely on your having taken employment by the U.S. government.
You called that correctly I am simplistic and a little paranoid.
And
Hey there wolf star fancy seeing you here!!!!
LoL
Kevin
Maggie:
(1) You still didn’t say which of my arguments are fallacious.
(2) I didn’t say you were a rightist. I suspect you failed to read carefully what I wrote.
(3) re/ “they” I’m saying that when you say “they” did something, it would be useful to say which one of the people or groups on your long enemies list you are referring to in that instance.
(4) I didn’t specify individual Tea Party people in my post because I don’t see any particular individuals making a name for themselves as TP spokespeople. The article is about the general “sense of life” or vibration I get from the Tea Party as a whole and in a general sense.
(5)
I beg to differ. Have you seen World Can’t Wait? They are lefties and they are very repulsed by war.
http://www.worldcantwait.net/
The lack of large anti-war demonstrations is a failure of all of us, not just the left or the libertarians. I haven’t set out to defend the left, or anyone for that matter, in this post. My thesis is simply that there is fertile ground on the left. I’ve demonstrated that wrt the issue of war with just the World Can’t Wait thing alone.
Democratic presidents are not leftists in my book. They’re just more thugs.
(6)
I think you’re wrong there. I think they’re roughly equal, just each side slices the pie a little differently. But this is not part of my thesis.
Again with the ad hominem. I’m dishonest now?
@Bill – I’d like to second MilitantLibertarian’s comment, well put. While not a combat veteran I was in the army. I’ll only say this, if I’d have known then what I know now I wouldn’t have joined.
Since you’re a patriot let me leave you with Patrick Henry’s words so you can reflect on what you fought for:
“If we admit this consolidated government, it will be because we like a great splendid one. Some way or other we must be a great and mighty empire; we must have an army, a navy, and a number of things: When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, Sir, was then the primary object…But now, Sir, the American spirit, assisted by the ropes and chains of consolidation, is about to convert this country to a powerful and mighty empire.”
Bill, thanks for commenting but my name is not Sir.
I’m very sorry to hear about that. I have many family and friends who were also duped into doing the state’s dirty business overseas.
Just because your wife decided to submit to the state, why does that mean other people must beg, plead, pay and wait for their right to associate freely with other human beings? Isn’t that already guaranteed by the constitution you claim you risked your life to defend?
And is this an offer by you to pay for this project to find and transport 30 million people? I’ll need to see your credit references before I can take the offer seriously.
You crack me up, Bill. I don’t support anyone that works out of that den of thieves called the white house.
And what does the constitution allow you? How will you know what it allows you? I’ll tell you: politicians will inform you what the constitution allows. And you’re happy with that? Thirty-one years of indentured servitude and you’re still content to live under someone else’s thumb? Really?
I’d strongly prefer it not come to that.
I’m proud to say none!
Oh I’m reasonably familiar with all of that. But what’s the relevance? The constitution was an inside job, illegitimately foisted on a tired people after the war. What happened to the Articles of Confederation? The idea that all people are sovereign? If I’m sovereign, why do I care about the constitution? All it does is tell the government what it can and can’t do.
I’ll wager that I’ve fought for more freedom than you.
Militant Libertarian: a fine comment.
Kevin: I said that something you said struck me as simplistic and a little paranoid, not you.
Darren: excellent quote. I wasn’t familiar with that one.
I am not going to comment on George’s posts other than to say I do not agree with him.
Regarding the video, it seems to me that the young man at the rally might have prepared himself better for the inevitable rejection. I get the feeling he was not expecting the reception he got, and responded poorly to it.
If one is going into a highly-charged, large mass of like-minded people, there is a strong likelihood that sparks are going to fly; one should be prepared to either absorb the shock or run like hell.
Either way, it is not admirable to complain about the results of one’s own failure to prepare oneself after the pain has been inflicted. Like the 40-some guy who got his ass handed to him by a 60-some “pinky” on a bus, the unknown is not something to be trifled with, and the downside of such trifling is nothing to cry about later.
GL, the gentleman in the video with the free market anarchist flag handled himself admirably. It was the Tea Partiers who squealed, whined and struck out in unthinking anger against the gentleman with the flag.
The Tea Partiers look like immature, hypocritical jerks. They want less government? Yet they called the police on someone who was doing the exact same thing they were doing!
The Tea Partiers are upset about government lies and distortions, yet they readily distorted this consistent free marketer into a member of ACORN. How ludicrous!
I don’t know what video you watched, but in the video on this page, the gentleman with the flag performed in an exemplary manner. Kudos to him. I’d still like to know who he is.
“Either way, it is not admirable to complain about the results of one’s own failure to prepare oneself after the pain has been inflicted. Like the 40-some guy who got his ass handed to him by a 60-some “pinky” on a bus, the unknown is not something to be trifled with, and the downside of such trifling is nothing to cry about later.”
that’s some good advice
One should always count the cost beforehand.
Everything has a risk/reward ratio
Excellent post George.
I find it funny, and by that I mean frightful, how so many of the TP’s, meaning those who simply advocate government aggression for their specific cause, can lash out at your words without even contemplating or addressing the points you bring up. As if what you advocate is tyranny, while the initiation of force that every and all government (no matter how limited) relies on to exist, is somehow ok and equivalent to freedom. That is plain scary and we can thank the robbery-funded indoctrination centers (public schools) for that type of thinking.
I put a link to this article at the Independence Hall Tea Party Association’s 25 Buses to Restoring Honor Rally Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=112399958813122
They deleted it.
Robby, an excellent point. Thanks for making it.
LOL Darren. Keep up the great work tho!
Hi there, Kevin. Which Kevin are you? :)
Also, hey, Militant Libertarian and Darren. :D
George, I think you’re being intellectually dishonest in the main gist of your article and in your arguments. I’m not accusing you of being dishonest in any other way. And, btw, I did tell you how your arguments are fallacious. I don’t know how many ways to phrase it. You said we should ally ourselves with the left. (Your words, not mine.) I took your words the left as the broad spectrum it implies. Would you like me to read between the lines or should you have been more clear in what you meant by that? You make the statements and the veracity and the burden of proof’s on you — not me, and you repeatedly expect me to prove your claims and refuse to see the reason in my claims.
On the other hand, I believe I see where some of our disconnects lie. (Still, it looks like I’m needing to explain what you meant in your article.)
Disconnect # 1.) You said we should “ally” ourselves […] The misunderstanding here is on me. I took the word ‘ally’ to mean the first definition and I believe you meant the second.
ally
–verb (used with object)
1. to unite formally, as by treaty, league, marriage, or the like (usually fol. by with or to ): Russia allied itself to France.
2. to associate or connect by some mutual relationship, as resemblance or friendship.
—
See what I mean? Automatic confusion and that one was largely my fault.
Disconnect # 2.) You said we should ally ourselves with the left That one was on you for you failed to be clear about what you meant by that. If you meant we should ally ourselves with a blanket, all-encompassing left then I still hold to what I said because the left in its broadest sense is freaking insane. If you meant ally ourselves with some elements or causes of the left (which I believe is what you meant) I don’t have a problem with that. As a suggestion, I would be more clear next time I said something like that in an article. You keep demanding I be more specific while you, yourself, are vague as hell. No matter how I specify further, you want more.
“With their neo-con lust for global domination, their blindness to the unfettered power of state-backed corporations and their failure to accept the impracticality of the state, they are more likely than any other movement to bring fascism to these shores.”
I understand what you’re saying here in the sense that the Tea Party claims some solution that will only further the aims of the state and the power it holds, or at least many do that. I’m not so sure they’re all doing that, though. Can you prove that? My experiences are only anecdotal so I can’t prove otherwise, but I know people who have attended Tea Party rallies who are small government, anti-war conservatives. Many of those same people supported Ron Paul. So, the Republican Party’s big govt. co-opting of the Tea Party is the problem I have with it.
Please respond to these points — you haven’t yet and this is getting tiresome.
So, in conclusion, we can ally ourselves with certain factions of the left and we can equally ally ourselves with certain factions of the right, which is what Militant Libertarian says in his comment concerning working with the left. Do you have a problem with this? If so please state it.
Kevin’s statement makes more sense to me than any other on this whole thread: ”
The title of your article leads to a lot of confusion right off the bat: “The Tea Party Could Bring Fascism to America”
I believe a clearer title would have been: “The Tea Party Could Complete Fascism in America”
I don’t know what else to tell you.
Again with the ad hominem. Do you really think that helps your case?
No you did not specifically identify which arguments you consider to be fallacious. Consider that ‘fallacious’ means having an error in logic.
On a side note, elements of fascism have been present around these parts since the first corporation was chartered in 1650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation#Modern_corporations
If that’s too early for you, see this note about an 1819 supreme court decision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation#Mercantilism
Your latest comment is an exercise in hair-splitting and, as such, I don’t find any utility in responding to it any further.
Hey there! Thanks for this. My left-anarchist friends and I have noticed the ultra-conservative nature of this agitator movement as well, and we appreciate that real libertarians know what’s going on in Tea Parties is full of shit. We may disagree about economics, but know that you are getting positive mentions…
One thing I am working on is getting the word out in radical left circles about the differences between capitalism as FMA people advocate them and corporatism. I think if the radical left could be sufficiently convinced that “actually existing” capitalism is not actually capitalism, we’d have much less misunderstanding and better outreach.
First, I made no ad hominem, nor did I split hairs. You did not respond to one thing I said. You’ve repeatedly, throughout this thread, conveniently ignored many of my, and several others’, statements. How does that further your argument?
Your fallacious Logic #1:
1. The Tea Party is pro big government; it is pro-war, intolerant, ultra-patriotic, pro-torture, and ready to scapegoat paperless immigrants — F
2. The Tea Party is not really free market; it is into corporate apologism — F
Therefore:
3.The Tea Party will bring fascism to America — F
As the Tea Party is a mixed bunch, your premises are not true because they’re only partially true so therefore = false.
Your conclusion is false not only because your premises are false but because, like you said, we’ve had elements of fascism in America for a long time and you haven’t demonstrated how the Tea Party will “bring” it any more than any other group.
Your fallacious Logic #2:
1. The left is more tolerant, has more respect for civil liberties, and has a repulsion to war. — F
2. Libertarians can find market-based solutions to the social problems they are concerned about. — T
Therefore:
3. Libertarians are wise to forge alliances with the left. — F
Premise 1: The left is not more tolerant. As a whole, it’s intolerant of the free market and it’s intolerant of ideas that differs from its own. It doesn’t respect gun rights, freedom of speech or freedom of religion so therefore it has little respect for civil liberties. There are some leftists who do still reject war while Obama is president, etc., but the fact that there haven’t been huge rallies with 100s of thousands of protesters at anti-war demonstrations since Bush left and Obama started says a lot.
Premise 2: It’s true that libertarians can find market-based solutions to those social problems but whether leftists will accept them is highly unlikely. If there is a leftist who has proposed free market economics or written an article that advocates the free market please point me to him/her. Even if you do, there won’t be a whole lot. Leftists are also corporate apologists.
Your conclusion that it’s wise to form an alliance with the left based on the falsehood of your first premise and the irrelevance of your second premise is therefore false.
Maggie,
I think George would agree that working with the left means cooperating about the things we agree with them on only. Things like ending the war & corporate welfare, for example. On things like regulating business, no.
Kudos Nick, thanks for commenting. :)
Maggie, you called me dishonest on two occasions. That is ad hominem. You attacked me instead of my argument.
I said it has the potential to do so. Not that it will. You created a subtle strawman there.
I was speaking of the Tea Party movement as a whole. Just because there are some exceptions to the general vibe, doesn’t render my claim about the general false.
I don’t have to show that the Tea Party is more likely to complete the job. That’s not part of my thesis.
That there have always been elements of fascism in American government is neither here nor there. It’s not relevant to either your argument (in comment #55) or mine.
Re/ #2 your argument rests on whether my slightly positive appraisal of the left is more correct or whether your negative appraisal of the left is more correct. There’s nothing particularly solid either way. It’s a judgment call.
I said you were being intellectually dishonest in your article and in your arguments. I specified that I wasn’t saying you were dishonest in any other way. I still say that.
Holy cow, George, that was exactly your thesis. Do you not know what you wrote? First sentence of article:
You have an extremely trivial and tangential point about what I said in the original post. However, at worst you can say I failed to compare the Tea Party’s probability compared to other groups. It is not fallacious, it was simply out of scope for the article, or, at worst, incomplete. It’s a blog post, not a dissertation. Perhaps I will address it in a future post.
On this extremely trivial and tangential point of yours, I’ll plead fatigue. You wore me out with all your nonsense: strawmen, they-ism, distortions, ad hominem, caricatures, making me ask 3 times before you spelled out your arguments for fallacy, hair-splitting, etc. It serves me right for treating your nonsense as if it weren’t.
Neo-cons are not on the right. Sure, good luck with that.
And you wore me out with your endless bullshit. Now your excuse for unreasoned argument is that your post is not a dissertation, it’s a blog post. Wow, now I get it. (Not really.)
Neocons, pal, are not conservatives any more than Hitler was, although ignorant ranters such as yourself will claim that he was, and you need to do some serious investigating and thinking. (That’s probably why they call themselves neoconservatives.) I would also check out the thinking thing. It’s an exercise worth doing every now and then.
Do you even understand that Trotskyists, where Neocons have their roots, are leftists? Check that out, too. Ignorance is no excuse for any of this. Read it, fool. Neo – CONNED !
I wonder if that’s like how my last 4 or 5 comments got deleted. A little censorship, perhaps?
I thought you were done Maggie?
Again with the distortion. I said there might be an argument for incompleteness with the post. I specifically said that it is not a case of an error in reasoning.
Again with the ad hominem.
I haven’t deleted any of your comments Maggie. I reserve the right to do so however.
You’ve worn out your welcome for awhile Maggie. Don’t stick around.
If you don’t love the United States then I have a plan for you, There are flights leaving everyday, be on one.
As for you fighting as many battles as I have for America’s Freedom, Would you like to meet me on a battlefield with real weapons instead of your big fat mouth. The only battle you’ve ever fought “PAL” is your battle with your fat waistline.
This is a nation of laws and anyone wishing to come here does have to conform to our laws or be removed. Nothing wrong with human association as long as the folks come here legally.
As for mentioning my wife, in your totally stupid remark. Son, get your butt out of Mommy and Daddy’s house, get a job and work for a living. You do not have the guts or courage to be a real man, much less a real American. People such as you are the reason America is going to the dogs (Rover).
So fat lips, if your a real man. Then come look me up and defend your meger honor you parasite infested rodent. As for you fighting a battle, don’t make me laught you “COWARD”.
The United State is a corporation, not a place. You can’t leave a corporation.
I didn’t say I fought for “America’s freedom.” How pompous and preposterous to claim you fought for the freedom of an entire continent.
Freedom of association is part of the supreme law around these parts (1A). How can a statute about green cards and visas possibly outrank the supreme law? And if it can, how can you still labor under the illusion of fighting for anything other than greedy, power-grabbing men?
All this character assassination doesn’t become you, Bill. I know you can do better.