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Warwick Township Cop Assaults, Kidnaps and Imprisons Me Over My Request for Business Card


Here are followup articles to this one, from newest to oldest:

  1. Warwick Police Pass My Case Up to Bucks County District Attorney, No Charges Filed Against Me Yet 13 Jan 2010
  2. Filed Complaint with Warwick Police (video) 12 Jan 2010

So I was out at lunch with classmates from a pistol instructor course this afternoon. As usual, I open carried my Glock 23. I ordered a sausage parm sandwich and was filling up my 20 oz soda from the fountain when the guy in the next booth turned and asked if I was from around here. Yes, I answered. Did he know me from somewhere? No. This was getting creepy. I didn’t answer him.

Who ARE you?”

Then: “Who ARE you?” Has a complete stranger ever asked you such an open-ended and personal question? It was a first for me. I had no idea what information he wanted and wasn’t about to give him my name or biography. “I don’t understand the question,” I told him. He didn’t like this answer.

Cop Threatens to Exceed His Authority

It was around this time that he claimed to be a cop. He showed no badge and wore no uniform. My instructor, who is a former cop, intervened to try and appease the man, a detective Jon Ogborn of Warwick township, Bucks county, Pennsylvania state. I kept quiet until Ogborn announced that he had to know who was carrying a gun around him, even if he had to handcuff and detain me. I replied that he would be exceeding his authority if he did that; that open carry of a firearm is legal under Pennsylvania law. Even his own department’s training memos will have confirmed in the last year that open carry is not sufficient justification for detention.

Just Waiting on my Sandwich

He got up, got in my face and became rather aggressive. I was just waiting for my sandwich to come up. I let him know I had no ill intentions. The gentleman who took my order told me he’d bring it to me so I sat down. To my amazement, my instructor gabbed with the cops (his lunch companion was a cop, too) all about me and my firearm-related activities.

This was not Right

As my adrenaline rush petered out and I ate my lunch, I realized I had just been treated inappropriately by a person claiming to be a cop who had demonstrated no evidence of it. I had no idea what his name was. This was not right. At a minimum, the cops’ own laws state they have to identify themselves to the public. I might want to file a complaint. I at least needed to keep my options open. So as I was leaving I stopped at his table. “Pardon me for interrupting but may I have your business card,” I asked.

Refused to Identify Himself

He refused! He offered to give it only if I provided my ID as well. I noticed that his lunch companion had a last name of McGurney on her sweater and a patch saying Warwick township. I noted this and began to leave but he got up and blocked my exit. He demanded my ID and when I asked if it was legally required, he claimed yes! That is an outrageous lie. I demanded to know what his reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) was. His confidence level fell when I mentioned RAS. I guess he’s used to picking on less-informed folks. I asked if I was free to go. He said no! I asked on what basis he was detaining me. A charge of disorderly conduct! Unbelievable.

Detained on Fabricated Charge

For several tense minutes he pushed me further and further into the back of the strip mall restaurant as he demanded my ID. I told him he was assaulting me but he denied it. I refused to give the ID. He told me he hadn’t planned to arrest me but he would. He claimed I had escalated the situation and left him with no choice, ignoring his aggressive actions toward me entirely! All I had to do to be free to go was to give me ID. My instructor begged me to give it so we could continue our class. I told him, I couldn’t give it to him even if I wanted to because my hands were cuffed behind my back!

Cops Keeping Track of Open Carriers?

Ogborn demanded to know if I was a lawyer. I just stopped talking to him. He didn’t expect me to resist him this much or with such pointed questions as about the RAS. I could tell he was nervous. He expected me to cave. I did not. He confessed that all he wanted was my ID so he could write up the earlier encounter with me. This really took me aback. Does law enforcement keep tabs on people who open carry?

Cops Doesn’t Care if I Consent or Not

He took me out back where we waited in the cold for several minutes, I without a jacket – that had been confiscated. He emptied my pockets. I told him I didn’t consent to any searches and he said he didn’t care. He inspected my wallet and found my driver’s license. But of course that was never the only thing he wanted. My possessions were placed in a ziplock bag. I was loaded into a police SUV, forced to lay across the back seat with no back support. There was literally no leg room. Ogborn’s lunch companion, Kathleen (Kathy) McGurney, drove me to jail.

How Can a Human Being be so Monstrous?

At the Warwick police department, I was ordered to remove belt and shoes and left in a 4’x6′ or 6’x8′ cement cell. I have to say, this was not fun. There was a camera watching me. It had one of those metal toilets. No privacy. A dirty white towel was the only potential source of cover. The only place to sit or lay down was painted concrete. The cement floor was freezing my feet. That’s the first time I’ve been locked in a cage and it is not pleasant. How can a human being be so monstrous as to lock his fellow man in a cage simply for failing to give the required level of deference?

Good Cop, Bad Cop

After 10 minutes, Ogborn showed up and gave me the good cop routine while McGurney in the background asked if I had to be taken down to the Montgomery county scanseek (??), whatever that is. I had to confirm my current address in order to get out. He implied that if I didn’t cooperate my charge could become a misdemeanor and that could become a problem for my planned move. [WTF! He got this tidbit of information from my instructor.] He justified himself again. He let me put my shoes on. He lectured me for several minutes with his version of the encounter. He complimented me. He led me to the building lobby where I waited another 20 minutes while they processed my property and reportedly a charge of disorderly conduct which I’m to hear of in the mail.

Still Completed My Course!

All of this transpired during roughly 2 hours but I still managed to complete the pistol course on time! Ironically, at least one of my four lunch companions was carrying a concealed firearm. But Ogborn didn’t see fit to search the whole restaurant for concealed pistols.


I have a bad attitude. It simply an incontrovertible fact. I will not bow down to authority figures. This is the root of my problem. I simply can not expect to speak with cops as my equals without being detained, harassed, attacked, man-handled, imprisoned, talked down to and/or robbed. This is the world I live in. I accept the consequences of my actions. So be it. But I will never bow down.

These are My Offenses

What did I do wrong? I securely and legally carried a pistol openly. I failed to answer the questions of a person who didn’t even identify himself as a cop. I told a cop that open carry was legal and that he did not have the authority by his own rules to detain me simply for open carrying. I asked a cop to identify himself. I refused to identify myself in a situation where even the cop’s own laws don’t require it. These are my offenses. For this I was harassed, assaulted, kidnapped and imprisoned – just for starters.

That’s the world we live in folks.

What Should I Have Done Differently

I have to learn how to ignore people I don’t know. I should have ignored Ogborn’s initial, and all subsequent, questions. I should have pretended he hadn’t even spoken. This is very counter to my nature though. I’m rather loquacious, sometimes gregarious and always receptive to communication with most any kind of person – even smelly bums!

I was running with the wrong crowd. My instructor is an ex-cop. Of course he’s going to sell me out at first chance. He’s a nice guy and he doesn’t see it that way, but in objective fact he did sell me out by giving Ogborn so much info about me. I have to be very careful about who I associate with. Any but the most committed is a liability.

I failed to exercise the discipline and care necessary to audio record my daily life. Argh.

What I Did Right

I’m glad I defended myself by stating that open carry is legal under Pennsylvania law and that he has no legal authority to detain me simply for open carrying. I think being too meek with a cop simply encourages him. I’m also glad I asked for his business card because I would have felt poorly without getting the information.

I was radically more terse in my communications this time. I didn’t lecture or challenge the cop hardly at all. I remained silent most of the time. I asked if I was free to go. Then I asked if I was being detained and what for. This was good.

I’m glad I stood my ground on the ID issue. He had no basis to demand it even under his own rules.

Next Actions

I’m going to put in a Pennsylvania Right to Know (FOIA-like) request on Monday. I will attempt to get the police report. I will consider filing a complaint and I may have to file a counter-claim if they pursue this unfounded disorderly conduct charge.

Don’t Tell me to Take it Down

Don’t tell me to take this down because it’s damaging my legal case. My goal is not to rake the cops over the coal for a multi-million dollar settlement. That’s a pipe dream. My goal in telling this story is to inform people like me. The fact is that the constitutions, bills of rights, laws, legal safeguards, police training memos and assorted government public relations paperwork are for entertainment and decorative purposes only.

You Want the Truth?

The fact is that cops don’t serve you. They serve themselves. They have no limits. They have legal immunity for their acts. They have no legal obligation to protect you from harm! They can do whatever the hell they like, and lie about it afterwards. They can arrest you for nothing, drop the original charges and prosecute you for resisting their false arrest. It’s a scam.

Most people can’t, or won’t, see this. That’s fine. I just hope to reach the small number who can.

Photo credit: banspy. Photo license.

By George Donnelly

I'm building a tribe of radical libertarians to voluntarize the world by 2064. Join me.

97 replies on “Warwick Township Cop Assaults, Kidnaps and Imprisons Me Over My Request for Business Card”

God damn them. This time sue. If you’re being truthful about how it went down (and I don’t for a minute believe that you are not), then nail them. Get a lawyer, get statements from witnesses, get this pig’s background and record (how much you want to bet he’s got a long list of complaints) and nail them. Personally, the partner as well, the department, and the city. Win or lose, you drag them through the system. But you could very well win. And make it for millions, if your lawyer thinks you can justify it.

Will this make you a target? Maybe, but you already are one, if you are going to keep OC’ing. But it will also make the next one think twice about escalating like that without cause. And it will make his partner, who might already be uncomfortable with this behavior, more likely to intervene to calm things down next time.

Wow George, that sucks. The cop was way out of line.

Fortunately i’ve discovered an item that, for as little as a few dollars, will prevent you from having to deal with hysterical onlookers and unpleasant police encounters while carrying a firearm in public. In fact, you probably had access to one at the time, so it would have been not only easy. but free for you to utilize. Using this item, I have shook hands with Hillary Clinton, stood a mere 10ft from our current president and engaged in numerous uneventful encounters with law enforcement.

It’s called an untucked shirt, George. I know you think you’re spreading awareness or flexing your rights with your antics, but in reality, you’re making people who are unaware that PA law does not address open carry think our legislators should fix that. You may win a few battles, but in the end this type of behavior will loose the war. Keep the people ignorant and they won’t think we need another law.

Kyle: I don’t know where I’ll get the strength to do that.

Marc: I’m not fighting a war. I’m just carrying some personal protection in a way that minimizes draw time and maximizes deterrence. I understand the concealed logic, won’t argue against it, respect your right to do it. All I ask is the same.

Any further posts that argue for concealed over open carry or vice versa will not be published. To each his own. That settles that debate.

Kyle: keep living in fantasy land, the cop could have ejaculated on George’s 5.11 tactical pants on camera in front of a group of nuns and you’d be hard pressed to get more than a 3 week paid vacation for the officer while his friends “investigate the alleged misconduct”, needless to say a million dollar settlement.

George: All I ask is, at the end of the day, that if my shirt rides up in the State of Pennsylvania I won’t be charged with criminal brandishing under “Donnelly’s Law”. I’m not here to debate the relative merits of personal carry styles. If anything, I’m here to talk about civil liberties and police encounters. Obviously, if you don’t see it that way or prefer only congratulatory comments on your blog, you can perpetuate ignorance by censoring my comments.

The best way to avoid trouble isn’t by watching “Flex Your Right’s” sixty-seven times and memorizing every word in the ACLU handbook for surviving police encounters (though it doesn’t hurt), it’s to avoid them altogether. You say you choose to carry the way you do to “maximize deterrence.” It’s debatable, but I’ll grant it. Since you say you were taking a pistol instructor course, I’ll assume that the instructor stated something to the effect of “the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it.” Extrapolate to police encounters.

Your primary mission as an armed individual, just like the police officer, is to go home to your family at night. If you’re in jail, right or wrong, you have failed that mission.

Marc, the terrorists win when you take more issue with a lawful firearm bearer than the aggressive gang that threatens both of us.

IOW, instead of whimpering about what new unlawful restrictions on RKBA may come down the pike, why don’t you stand up and defend your unlimited RKBA.

It’s impossible to avoid police attacks. They’re everywhere and they’re pissed off!


I’m sorry that this goon suffers from ‘lack of care’, a common theme amongst the shiny badges; I think police academics seek to sterilize this tiny strand of DNA and harden the hearts of the new cop further.
What you MUST DO is this:
a) request their employment profile / records / complaints / reprimands etc. that their employer HAS to provide – (public officer).
b) create a detailed complaint with their internal affairs department, (sometimes called ‘professional standards’ – HAH!)
c) levy further attention on the agency by CREATING ACTIVE CONTENT either in video (youtube ala ‘4409), AUDIO (local radio, media etc. and Ernest Hancock’s web show on Freedoms Phoenix) or SIGNAGE (Yes, make S-I-G-N-S). Get as creative as you can, but keep the slogan simple; “2nd Amendment Right to Carry / Bear Arms D.E.A.D. IN WARWICK PA!!!” (example).
*note – when a ‘vaccine sign hangin outing’ turned U-G-L-Y with an interaction by a couple of cocky, brainless pigs who had apparently been snorting testosterone all night .

Make NO MISTAKE about it…if you REALLY WANT THOSE THERE RIGHTS to open carry, chew gum and wear your hat sideways you will need to DEFEND those rights regularly. This sort of ‘interaction’ occurs when cops forget who they work for (US!) and WE FORGET HOW TO DEFEND OUR RIGHTS (COMPLIANCE!). I know, seems harsh but it’s plenty real all over the U.S. I’m always hearing stories like these, it just doesn’t disturb me as much as the stories coming out of PA. After the N W O police forces showed up to squash the college kids from protesting the G20 summit I think the whole nation is watching to see what it going on with firearms rights abuse there. PA is a ‘hotspot of NWO implementation’ thanks to all those G20 goons. We inherited our OWN DOSE of scrutiny here in Phoenix with the brother who brought the AR15 to the Barry O’ Rally last summer . The whole world was trying to make us look ‘off kilt’ / but we had our SHIT TOGETHER on that one!!

Oh Yes!! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER leave your home without a fully charged camcorder and mini digital audio recorder. REMEMBER: If you don’t collect evidence against any cop, they were ‘perfect angels’ and did NOTHING WRONG!!! Do you hear me??? Nobody will take you very seriously at all unless you can back up your shit with AUDIO / VIDEO evidence!!

Please, DON’T GIVE UP!! Blessed are the Peace Makers~

George, I disagree with your analysis. You seem to have a very polite, respectful and tolerant attitude. Maybe that’s because I don’t demand that you bow to my authority.

I respect and fully support your choice to open carry, but it does seem to attract the worst criminals, rather then deter them.

You need a personal recording device of some kind.

George, it appears to me that you’re falling into some sort of trap, or perhaps phasing between two planes — never quite materializing in either. An outward observer might say you’re an infant in the face of liberty. You’re frustrated and you’ve given up on something that hasn’t even been tried. To expound,

Explicit statutory authority is required to arrest for any particular summary offense. An arrest for a summary offense may further be discouraged (IIRC) unless there is an immediate risk of harm to self or others, or it is unlikely the suspect-defendant will appear for proceedings (see “Committee Introduction to Chapter 4:” at ). Note procedures in summary cases following arrest at . What I do not know offhand is to what extent an officer has search-incident-to-arrest capabilities in summary cases.

I do know however that Terry v. Ohio and progeny do not allow pocket emptying, and that any search incident to unlawful arrest is also unlawful. That clamors for a 1983 suit. Something you don’t seem to understand, however, is that not every tool is only for ‘raking the cop(s)’. These incidents are endemic to a systematic breakdown that several people are probably responsible for. The taxpayer-voter, the elected executive-administrative official, the police chief, the supervisor, and the officer at hand make up the chain of people who likely had a hand in incubating your harm. The 1983 suit is for the justice against the taxpayer-voter and to create a foundation of caselaw likely to aid sorry souls in the future. Departmental complaints are to put hirelings on notice, and criminal complaints are to take care of those who refuse to be policed internally and who commit crimes no different than the layman. There are other tools, and you should learn their purposes. And if you don’t want to take the federal route, there are state civil remedies also, but they’re less likely to compensate you for your time and reasonable attorney fees (if you take one on.)

You say you’re not fighting a war yet just today you were taken as a prisoner of war — the War against Life, Liberty, and Property. It is an undeclared war that has been waged for over 200 years. For those who cry that for you to exercise liberty that their rights will be denied: I applaud you, because every exercise that results in a longer train of usurpations and abuses ought to rouse the People that much closer to rising in arms.

Get audio and video recorders, take a deep breath, and start using them. I know what it is to step into the fog of war, or to try to rise up from an upbringing of institutionalized subservience, and it takes some practice to most appropriately deal with tyrants and slavers.

Someone on PAFOA within the past few weeks pointed out an 8gb minicamcorder marketed to public servants to create the exact type of evidence to protect them and help their investigations that laypersons can utilize in the same way. It costs around 110-130, but consider how much money and time is spent in the course of simply fighting for justice whether or not criminal proceedings are instituted against you even after an arrest.

What I have to ask those who herald compromise and meekness as we face society and government: Was a slave (who was fortunate enough to have a decent master who fed and taught him,) who always followed his master’s rules and was never whipped, not a slave? And if he was still a slave, how can we contrast this scenario with the unlawful and immoral constraints on our life, liberty, and property placed by government today? Did the slave not deserve those natural things, and to enjoy that which he earned, just as we should?

These incidents are going to keep on happening to you and others, and I would prefer that you learn helplessness from the failures of your attempts and not learn that helplessness from anecdotes or omissions by others. In fact, as these persons are not policed, they will becomes bolstered in their attitudes and actions, and the severity of each occurrence will escalate.

One of your early mistakes was not calling 911 to report someone impersonating a police officer.

I would say that this detective doesn’t know how bad he screwed up and what is about to come his way in the form of negative attention both legally and in the media…. But I see you have again chosen to simply take the abuse.

Legal action is not about making millions, it’s about righting a wrong.
No legal action = nothing accomplished. Maybe worse. By not taking legal action you are only enabling the rouge police officer.

Let me comment from position of experience on these matters, about your ideas you posted on your blog entitled: “what’s next”.

[list][*]The FIOA will accomplish nothing. If you get an attorney to defend against the citation you will get the police report as part of discovery. If you sue in civil court you will get the police report. Other than taking legal action or defending against the charges the police report is meaningless.
[*]Filing a complaint with the PD will accomplish nothing. Seriously, round file.
[*]There is no such thing as a “counter claim” if they cite you for disorderly conduct. You plead not guilty and defend against the charge or plead guilty.
If you try and file a private criminal complaint against the officer the DA will laugh you out of his office.
[*]This full disclosure on your blog will accomplish nothing (other than hinder any legal action)[/list]

There are people who can help. People that have been part of a successful team in righting these wrongs in the past, but you have to make a decision to take a stand and ask for the help. It’s not an insurmountable task. You absolutely should not “accept the consequences of your actions” as you called it. You did nothing wrong. You need to lawyer up and fight this. If you don’t you’ll regret it later. That idiot doesn’t stand a chance in court, both prosecuting the charge and defending against a civil claim. Why let him win?

I posted this in your thread on PAFOA. If you want to respond I will see it there (I don’t follow blogs too often, too damn busy ;)) And if you contact me over there through PM I can give you my contact info if you want to discuss your options.

“IOW, instead of whimpering about what new unlawful restrictions on RKBA may come down the pike, why don’t you stand up and defend your unlimited RKBA.”

You do that, I’m gonna go listen to The Clash.

Good stuff George. After situations like these it’s easy to think what you could have done better in retrospect, and it’s good to see that you’ve already done so so you know better how to handle these gang members next time around, but don’t beat yourself up about it. You did damn well.

You verbally articulated your rights. That thug who believes that the piece of metal pinned to his shirt grants him authority to violate the rights of others probably never encountered someone like you. Someone who didn’t cower to his threats. Your story will embolden others to think for themselves and do the same.

As the saying goes, the evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.

@George: “Kyle: I don’t know where I’ll get the strength to do that.”

I know, it’s easy for me to rant from this side of the screen. I was seeing the “red haze” myself. I honestly don’t know how I would have kept one tenth as cool as you did. I probably would have ended up dead, not on some principled stand, but simply because I lost it.

I don’t know where you’ll get the strength. You found the strength to OC again after the last one, you’ll probably find it again after this one. I think there’s more strength there than you think. But only you can decide, and you have to figure out which approach is best for you and your family.

Ignore Marc, he’s a Fudd.

I think NWA said it best… ‘F**k the Police.’ The worst thing about the whole cop thing is that what they were doing to the minorities in the ghettos during the 80’s and early 90’s they are now doing it to everyone else. Where’s Ice-T When you need him?

Your instructor/friend/whatever needs to be kicked in the head a couple of times. Nice guy, didn’t stand up for you at all.


I have to say well done. It is VERY hard to keep cool under pressure… especially when they lock you up. Thanks for sharing the story so that others may learn from it. I am also glad you put the things that you think you did right and the things that you think you did wrong.

Have you spoken to your instructor about all of this?

George, another option is to talk to the witnesses yourself, then go to the media. Catch them on the right day, and they might be all over it. Just don’t expect them to share our outrage, they’d probably take the tack of “is it really OK to carry guns in a suburban sandwich shop? One cop didn’t think so.”, but the publicity could still work in your favor.

I’m sure glad some prick didn’t come up on ME like that when I was carrying. The temptation may have been too great.

One martyr for our cause would certainly make the rest of those idiots think twice they next time they get their Joe Bob panties in a sling.


Sorry to hear about that. If your account of the events is even close to accurate, I think you did exactly the right thing. The problem here is that there is little immediate recourse available to a civilian when a cop escalates an encounter in spite of everything you try to do. They are trying to get you to do something physical by getting physical with you. You stood your ground but did not resist – this is tricky and I think you pulled it off admirably. Given the right lawyer and witnesses, this case should result in at least some embarrassment for the cop.

Sue. In your complaint, ask for a million dollars in damages. Once you’ve filed the lawsuit, make a settlement offer of no money if the perp is bounced off the public payroll.

Until and unless this kind of behavior has expensive consequences, this harassment will continue. Cops need to learn that unprovoked aggression is a career-ending mistake.

Please, listen to Chuck and O. Rly. They’ve said 99.9% of what I was going to say. I applaud your standing up for your rights — it’s not easy or fun to go to jail, for however short a time — but unfortunately, these days, we have to do more when we’re confronted with such abuses of power.

I live in Arizona and am frequently stopped by the Border Patrol 50 miles from the nearest border with Mexico and asked questions which exceed their authority. (I’m a lily-white woman with light brunette hair, blue eyes, and a distinct southern drawl.) My response is usually to hold up my passport and say, “I’m a US citizen going about my lawful business.” (They always want to know where I’m coming from, what I’ve been doing, where I’m going, amongst other things.) If they persist in that line of questioning, I repeat my response. Around the third time, I ask, “Are you arresting me, or am I free to go?” So far they just sputter and then wave me through, but I’m prepared to go to jail — and my attorney’s on speed dial.

Good luck with your own personal fight against totalitarianism.

Hey George~ I just came up with a FANTASTIC idea for you!!
Here in our (ahem…’beloved’) Phoenix we have this incredible amount of really stupid pirates and wanna-be extortionists. Thankfully, the boys at ‘’ keeps an eye on them for the rest of us, but I was just thinking…if you started your OWN ‘’ site, you could continue to RUN IT wherever you go!! It’s just a thought, I know that the ‘badphoenixcops’ dudes get LOTS AND LOTS of props = respect from the majority of anyone who has heard of them here…AND we ‘hear’ about their stories all the time. The local media keeps their fingers ‘on the pulse’ of all things ‘BPC’, as well do the local pirate population. Getting ‘punked’ on ‘BPC’ is ALMOST as bad as getting punked by 4409…(but i’m sorta partial to our 4409…we LOVES HIM, here in the land of the NeoCon).

Alright, I know…I’m kind of a pain in the arse, but you sure are ripe for revenge, Mr. ‘BADWARWICKCOPS.COM’ owner… (smile!)

George, I hate hearing stories about the people we hire to serve and protect us, abusing their powers. I really hope you take Rich’s advice, he knows what he is talking about.

Marc, do you like you grass dry or wet when grazing??

George, you gave the cop what he needed to arrest you. The proper tactic is to not answer him, answer NOTHING. You are not obligated to answer ANY of his questions, since “anything you say can AND WILL be used against you. You have to be smart enough about your rights, and strong enough to STFU.

I also use the tactic of asking them for ID when they ask for mine (do you have proof that I’m required to carry ID, and to give it to you if requested?, and if they do not give it up, call 911 and tell them there is someone impersonating an officer and do not hang up. Record your interaction with the police (pirates). If he objects to this, ask him “why do you think it’s ok for someone to impersonate an officer? A real officer would be very open to identifying him/herself upon request!

If you are arrested, he violated probable cause, unless you gave it to him. For example, the cop asked for your Carry Permit. First off, you do not have to have a permit to carry a gun (Sovereigns do not, Citizens do). Even if you WERE required (which is what the pirate is assuming), what probable cause does he have to believe that you do not have a permit?

Your mistake is answering a question he posed to you “do you have a permit for that sidearm?”. You should not be answering his questions (which in itself is submission to his “authority”), instead ask him “what proof do you have that I do not have one? What proof do you have that I am required TO have one? That that STATUTE (not law) applies to me?” Make the pirate answer the questions, not you.

Same argument applies to traffic “violations”. What evidence does he have that you are 1) required to have a DL 2) do not have a DL, and are supposed to? He doesn’t, the best he has is to ask you and then have you stupidly answer his question(s) and voila’, he now has the evidence to arrest and convict you. EVIDENCE THAT YOU GAVE HIM.

Do not give them your name, nor allow them to touch you, fingerprint you, NOTHING. “I do not consent to ANYTHING!”. If y0u do not object, they can AND WILL use it against you.

Regardless of your errors in this interaction, you still have recourse. I hope you didn’t sign anything without a “ARR 1-207” disclaimer, otherwise you waived your rights. When you sign, you have agreed to a contract, that you must adhere to. You have to be strong enough to take the mental pressure.

But at this point a Sovereigns main option is to file a Common Law Counterclaim against the dept and the officer (personally). His Dept has no authority nor jurisdiction over you, unless you allow it. If you continue to ALLOW this behavior to push you around, you are inviting their transgressions. They know you are a wussy, and are not fighting back. Why would they NOT continue to harass and intimidate you? You are allowing it, and they are getting away with it, and teaching you a lesson in resisting the pirates. This will continue until you hurt them where it counts (their bank acct), then they will finally leave you alone and pick on more ignorant and easier targets. You are in no-mans land and need to either back off, or fight them, but this middle ground is a dangerous place to be. Good luck.

This cop should be ashamed of himself. And when can we start DEFENDING ourselves from these CRIMINALS?! If they can’t get it right in such a difficult and CRITICAL time for our country than they shall get what they deserve.

Mr. Donnelly, you have been taught a very strong lesson; that if you want to walk around with a gun on your hip you must accept that sooner or latter some bully or nut-job will challenge you. You found out what happens when you don’t answer that challenge: You talked too much and look where it got you. You were publiclly humiliated, embarrassed, shamed, and you suffered an unjustified arrest. Learn from it Mr. Donnelly; if you’re not going to answer a challenge then leave the gun at home or keep it under your jacket.

Thanks Jim. I have the devices I just don’t seem to get around to using them.

O I didn’t comport myself like a slave and such comparisons I find specious but as always I thank you for your comments.

Rich, thanks.

Pete, that means a lot. Thanks man.

Henry, my instructor approached the situation in his own way. I understand it and can’t be angry with him.

Dreepa, my instructor just said that he understands each person has their own principles. He’s black and recounted a situation where he had to take a stand.

Jeremy, you hit the nail on the head. My options are highly limited.

Thanks Mike.

Julie, kudos but why even show your passport? I wouldn’t.

Chuck you’re not a pain at all. Neat idea.

1215, you’re right, as soon as I knew he was a cop I should have broken off. I’m getting there. He did not request a carry permit tho. He wanted a driver’s license. How do I stop them from touching me? He had me boxed in. I had nowhere to go. It’s the nature of the restaurant, narrow aisle.

Thanks Brodie.

I don’t show them the *inside* of my passport — just hold it up and wave it at them. My other option is to show them my driver’s license, and unfortunately, the Border Patrol *does* have the legal right to demand what my citizenship is and that I show proof of residency or visa status as long as they’re within 75 miles of the US Border. (They’ve never asked to see the passport, probably rightly assuming that I wouldn’t be waving it around if I weren’t prepared for them to look at it.) If I showed them my driver’s license, that doesn’t settle the question of my citizenship, and they then proceed to ask nosier questions, and the whole thing takes longer, and I get more and more annoyed.

It’s a compromise position I decided on after they started searching my car when I came back over the border after shopping in the duty-free store. The story is far too long to tell here, but suffice to say I was not treated well. This way I tweak their noses but run a very limited risk of getting tossed in jail — which has happened before I adopted this policy and I did not enjoy.

Hmm? Way to go, you sure showed him, but wait till you figure out how many crimes he committed by violating your rights, because its a federal offense to do what he did and as to the lawsuit it only serves us better if you did sue his butt off and then he should be fired and have his gun toting privilege taken away for threatening and tampering with a witness. There are a never ending supply of bullies to go around and their called terrorists…
Welcome to the hapless beat down, I used to have long hair not because I was a hippie, but because I was a musician and if I showed my face in public I got trashed by the commies once at a 4 of July celebration where I was a witness to another false arrest and they ripped my arm out of the socket Federal Way WA last year but no one in this STATE has any balls to take them to court with me .

Sorry you were harassed by the local criminals.

I did have an iPhone and a small HD video camera…

I don’t. Your story makes me realize I should have the equipment and procedures in place to help defend myself against attacks like the one against you. Can anyone recommend a supplier filling this market niche?

I commend you and support you for standing up for your rights against tyranny. Many more Americans need to do the same. There is much to be learned about interfacing with law enforcement off of the internet, and I have been blogging that subject and gun rights for years at I hope you’ll stop by, bookmark, and vist — as that’s what I’ll be doing with your site. ~~ For liberty, Fred

I think some of them are looking forward to a police state in the future!
Violation of the oath of office should be a felony but many of them have no clue what The Constitution is.

I used to live in Warwick township, at that time there wwere only two policemen. Chief Mc gallister woulda never acted so badly. Sorry to hear that metroplitan Jamison has fallen so far CR

George, I know you had one on you but this is just a reminder how important it is to use that tech. Unfortunately it would have probably escalated the situation, they like cameras just as much as they like open carry.

COPs Suck and they will get theirs one day. The way things are looking it might be soon.
Cops are nothing more than Hall Monitors, and everybody hates a hall monitor.

This is why we need to support Barry Cooper who is with Kopbusters.
He is an ex-cop who is hunting cops that break the constittution and he is also running for Attorney General of Texas so he can stop all the corrupt cops.
He needs our support. If we do nuthin then we can expect nuthin

Reminds me of an incident that occurred near Round Rock, TX, a few years back. A guy had one of those gag items, a pants leg and foot that closes in the trunk of a car and hangs out where drivers behind can see it (and laugh). A power-mad, overzealous University of Texas campus cop spotted the car as it passed (out of his jurisdiction) north on IH35, and pursued the car nearly to Round Rock before he forced the driver over. He then proceeded to cuff the driver and arrest him, despite the fact that he was way out of his jurisdiction and the obvious nature of the gag item. If I remember correctly, not only did the campus cop get fired, but UT had to cough up some cash for the campus cop’s violation of the driver’s civil rights.

If he touches you and you don’t like it, you must voice your objection; “You do not have permission to touch me!”. Remember, No Objection = Consent!

You MUST OBJECT, or it’s understood you are ok with it. NEVER do anything they “ask”. “Are you asking me or ordering me?”

“Please step out of the car!” (while yelling), is a REQUEST. That’s how they trick you!

Simply reply “are you asking me or ordering me?”; remember you NEVER answer their questions, either STFU or ask them a question back.

What you want to do is trap them into ORDERING YOU (instead of asking), and this is quite easy because they are power mongers. Then they are liable for your bill for services since you are following their orders (watch vids on Robert Menard for more information). You can send them a bill and collect it thru the sheriff if they do not pay it.

If your article was accurate…there should be no worries and I’m sorry to hear about what happend.

Hopefully this guy was not that ignorant (and you did the right thing too…did ya? I do not have an answer…), then again, there are so many bullies, in all walks of life. Perhaps it was tough guy meet tough guy?


AUDIO / VIDEO recorders

‘stealthy & works great!’ –

as much as i H.A.T.E. Walmart –

The neat thing about these small cams is the ‘hide-ability’. I have staged cameras inside carry-bags, back packs and in my wifes purse in order to speak freely / intelligently and without too much fear just knowing the camera is on. I NEVER TALK TO POLICE WILLINGLY, but if I do have to talk to the cops, I ALWAYS HAVE 2 RECORDINGS ROLLING – PERIOD!

Me and my pals have successfully brought these small recorders into several courtrooms, even tho they try to dissuade their use. You’d be completely BLOWN THE ‘F’ AWAY to hear someone who knows constitutional law / straw-man style ‘have his way’ with the magistrate and prosecution.

Making recordings: In this state; (as I believe it’s close to the same law in most states), at least ONE PARTY must be aware that a recording is taking place. Otherwise, it falls under something called ‘the patRIOT ACT’.

I know, you all might feel a little squeamish recording pirates and not getting creeped out by the whole process, but once you get used to it you can walk around and have FUN with these things as well!!

PS: If you aren’t having F.U.N., you are doing something wrong~

Blessed are the Peacemakers

George, if I were you I’d find me a good lawyer and seek to have the criminal charges dismissed, then sue the city, the police and the cop for any and every claim possible.

No, I hadn’t seen the video you linked; thanks for passing it on. Curiously enough, that happens to be the station that I’ve been talking about!

If a perfect stranger can come up and assault you, kidnap you and put you in a cage, what is the point of carrying a gun?

You’ll enjoy his videos Julie. :)

Don, there was a person that appeared to be a cop next to him. It was reasonable to act as if he was a cop, even if he never showed me any evidence of that fact.

Re-reading your post George, I’d also file a claim(s) against the cop who was with the bad-cop, since he was present and witnessed all this and did nothing to protect you, which also violated HIS oath of office.

Lemme get this straight.
You’re walking around with a gun right out in the open for all to see.
A thug insults and assaults you multiple times in front of a group of people.
Then he kidnaps you and throws you in a cage after taking some of your garb.
Am I right so far?

I’ll also presume he took your gun too.
Then growing bored with your passivity he kicked you to the curb and took some of your money.

Is this an accurate description of this portrait you have rendered?

So back to my original question, whats the point of the gun?

Don I suppose you’re one of these tough guys that if this happened to you the bad guy would be dead, or worse. I think I handled a tough situation well. I minimized the damage. I am not in jail and not facing charges of resisting arrest or assaulting a cop. And I’m certainly not on the run after killing a cop with the blue brotherhood nationwide making finding and killing me their number one priority.

Anything further on this ridiculous line of questioning that isn’t reasonable will not be published.

George, do yourself a favor and look up Radley Balko and do some reading about what he has been archiving for the past few years at least.

Let me clarify something, until you approached the thug at his table I believe you were completely in the right.

He was an asshole, but this shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that’s been paying attention.

If you had been paying attention, and are aware of the things Balko constantly writes about, then why in the world would you mess around with these people?

They almost ALWAYS win.

Here’s my advice, avoid all of this. Move on with your life.
I’m a firm believer in teaching by example and 4 years ago I saw the writing on the wall and removed myself from the type of environment where scenarios like you have described are prevalent. No, I’m not a tough guy, but I do recognize that I have a *threshold of rage* and one of these punks will eventually cause me to cross that threshold if I allow that to happen. Now, I live in a place where there about 10 jack boots in the whole county and as far as I can tell they know their place, as it should be.

I try to avoid confrontation with assholes and I do that because I know how I am. Seriously, I just can’t be around that sort of thing. I have a wife and a kid and they deserve to have their husband/father around for a long time and I think yours do too.


“Ignorance is no excuse” LOL

Don, I thank you for your advice. I’m going to pursue it for now and see where it leads. Either the cops will change and I will be proven wrong, or I will be proven right – nothing will improve and the capriciousness of the police and courts will be demonstrated once again. Seems like a win-win! Thanks for your final comment Don, which is thoughtful and sincere.

I agree, he shouldn’t have had to put up with any of that.
But why are you denying reality here?

Everyday these jackboots are terrorizing people all across the land and getting away with it, and that is wrong. But it is a fact of life, now, and to deny that is pure folly. If you fool around with these animals enough they will kill you. Yes, George could have pulled his piece and delivered justice on the spot, but the back-up would have come after him and killed him. Again, this happens everyday here in the USSA. So why mess with these people?

Look, nobody likes to lose, and George thinks he has been wronged, and I agree that he has. But somewhere along the line he has to realize he is way out numbered and the system is way out of line. He can bitch, moan, hire lawyers, sue everybody, and play by THEIR rules but in the end what has been gained?

Or, he can look at this thing for what it is, learn something, and adjust his life accordingly.

Me? I got better things to do than play silly jack boot games.

you don’t hurt them by being violent, that’s their game. You hurt them by making them broke. I will bet the entire force would have an attitude adjustment when the sheriff is auctioning off the cop’s WIFE’S HOUSE AND ALL THEIR BELONGINGS, because he went too far. And I guarantee you they will think twice in the future, and will be more likely to follow lawful procedure. All because you show them that they can’t hide behind their badge or department, since they are PERSONALLY COMMERCIALLY RESPONSIBLE for their actions. They will continue acting like that, as long as they keep getting away with it. Once they see there are REAL CONSEQUENCES, they will start behaving and act like civil servants instead of pirates.

I’m not sure where Don is located that the ever-more-pervasive government doesn’t affect him, but if it is clear to him that the system can provide no redress, he has nothing to lose in pursuing a natural law defense of self, given that the government will eventually destroy him and his family /no matter/ what he does.

George, I’ve been reading what those at PAFOA say, and there’s obviously one thing they don’t understand as to why you won’t take action (and I assume this is the basis), that there is some moral conundrum with your anarcho-voluntaryist roots that prevents you from using the system to seek redress against it. What I don’t understand is why you never mention that when people respond to you posts on PAFOA. Now, if I am wrong and you reason is actually that you somehow don’t want to jeopardize your family, you already have, having had made yourself a known entity to law enforcement. The problem with not taking action is the next guy will ‘get it’ that much harder, and in every case, you have also been the next guy; the man preceding you it would have been too much trouble to do anything about his situation, or that it was helpless, that all those anecdotes of being shot down by the Man assembled together in his subconscious and he said “I shall not even try.”

Well that’s frankly bullshit, and when everyone clamors for you to take action and admonishes you for not, you must understand that they come from a view that there is still a theoretically viable system with which to take action and they are apparently not barred morally from doing so. The problem is that their helplessness appears as learned as yours. For example, I don’t know if I’ve even seen a report on PAFOA of someone attempting to file a private criminal complaint against a state actor (and be denied) yet some will tell you unequivocally that such an effort will fail. Where did they learn this response?

These kinds of wrongful actions will continue and EVEN if every suitable method were bound for a most immediate and acute failure, the acts have side effects potentially beneficial. Most police wrongdoing never get reported, but what if EVERY victim filled a private criminal complaint and then appealed to the court of common pleas, so that ultimate a public record of every incident was generated. Don’t people think that someone might aggregate such data, and eventually the media might report it, or at least the citizens at large might have such information available before them on some place on the internet? How long could the People remain ignorant, purposely or otherwise?

There are several tools in the toolkit of redress, perhaps some more useful than others, but we’ve certainly not mastered them all, nor made them obsolete. If there is no actual ethical bar to entry into the system for such purposes, I implore you to use as many tools as you can. One tool I would like to see you use is the private criminal complaint. Official Oppression, Robbery, False Imprisonment, and Harassment certainly might be applicable according to your record above. Please see Who determines probable cause when a private criminal complaint is submitted? on PAFOA to get an idea of the basic legal process (as for the procedural process, who’s to know? no one has ever claimed to have undertaken it!)

Maybe I’ll call the Bucks County DA’s Office and ask them how to best facilitate a complaint through the system. Maybe I’ll ask them, “If I have a page of a journal, the journal belonging to some criminal, and I pass this nameless criminal’s journal page before the office, will they write up a police criminal complaint having found probable cause or more among that criminals own words, as to prosecute him?”

Having now just reviewed your video, I wonder why you weren’t willing to receive answers in writing (but not alternately to on video) if they were really willing to provide them. A departmental complaint should not just go to a department where a supervisor or police chief can shrug is off. I’m not sure there’s any police officer who would remain hired if they stood up and upheld the constitutions, so we have to believe they are given somewhat of a blank check to perform their acts. This is not to dissuade you from directing a complaint to the department personnel in charge of handling those, but you also need to copy that to the township solicitor, and the elected officials who have the power to determine the police chief. This will be either the supervisors or the commissioners, and I am not sure which party would be most applicable. I would try calling both groups and asking them which has the control over the chief and the personnel; I have also found documents on the internet describing different elected officals’ authorities over the police department and I am attempting to relocate it now for your perusal.

O, I suspect announcing I’m an anarchist and attempting to massage their concept of an anarchist as a commie bomb-thrower into what I mean by it as a peaceful person would only make matters worse.

You make some very good points there, thanks.

Having evolved my views over the last 3 months, I don’t feel as bad about using the system’s methods of redress of grievance now as I feel it’s simply a waste of time and money and therefore self-destructive.

Most of all I’m just really shocked by this last incident and willing to try something new.

Thanks for your suggestions. I am going to file the private criminal complaint for both cases.

You’re right, it was silly of me not to fall back to written Q and A so I sent him an email with my questions.

Hey great idea there on copying the supervisors! Thank you. I will try that as well.

@O. Rly: The gov’t DOES affect me, and as I stated, I am constantly arranging things in an effort to minimalize how much it affects me. As I age this becomes more and more important to me. Fighting them is not in my game plan, avoiding them is. There is little to no chance of winning against the gov’t and any win would be microscopic and not without severe repercussions. I mounted a 14 year long effort against the gov’t at unbelievable cost and lost drastically even though everything was on my side including the facts of law. THAT convinced me that there is no fighting this institution. Hell, this gov’t takes on whole countries so what chance does a mere individual have? You guys can fight the good fight if you wish, thats your choice and I believe it to be a noble effort, but I also think its very naive of you to believe you have a chance of winning when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And these sorts of things tend to stick to you for a very long time. This gov’t is getting bigger, not smaller. I’m pretty much convinced it is already top heavy and will eventually fall over. My job is to stay out of its way when it does. I just want to live and let live and be left alone. So I am reducing my footprint on this planet and staying below the radar sweep. I live peacefully in a very small rural community in the midwest and I moved here 4 years ago after living in a very large suburban area in southwest Florida for 40 years. Its better here.

George, there’s already libertarians with internal conflicts and anarchists on PAFOA, who are not uprooted simply for their belief in ultimate liberty. At the same time, there are many people who call themselves libertarianish and yet don’t mind all these encroachments and sometimes even ask for more of different types. One name I can think off is ‘truecrimson’, search for his posts and read a few, and you should understand. I would have thought just linking these posters to a few blog entries on your site related to your philosophy would have been helpful.

I suppose that is moot now, since you are saying you are more open to working the system now. How much did it cost you to go file that departmental complaint, one that is allegedly turning into a DA inquiry? If a prosecution commences against any officer, will you still be able to say it is a “waste of time and money and therefore self-destructive”? (and I’m still not sure on what basis you and many others take this positions.)

Further, I don’t think that there is even a filing fee to file a private criminal complaint, only what it costs you in time to draw it up, print it on paper, drive it to the DA (and the MDJ if the DA hands an approved complaint back to you to be transmitted). Any court costs are going to be taxed to the Commonwealth or the defendant, so the PCC seems to be an incredibly low cost, low risk endeavor (except maybe if the government can turn all the police and all your witnesses into saying the events did not occur and then they try to slap you with a “False reports to law enforcement authorities” charge.)

I never was against filing a complaint, I just didn’t get around to it with Plymouth, until today.

I’m going to file the private criminal complaints.

It’s the idea of hiring a lawyer and doing civil suits that I consider a waste of time, speaking for myself.

Well, George, congratulations on becoming an OC veteran!
Getting tossed in the can for something like this is no bad thing.
You now have experience and perspective beyond the Keyboard Kommandos out there.

Short of going up to the cop and asking for his ID (you should have just left the whole thing alone), I’d say you handled it very well. The PD is clearly vulnerable to a lawsuit. Go on the legal offensive my friend!

“The Police” is no monolith, but a community-varied department. Some PDs are fair, while others are not. To some extent, the local citizens have power to improve things, if they are willing to take some risks.

Recording all confrontations is vital.
The best way is to have the audio streaming through cell phone to a safe computer. That way, the .wav file couldn’t be erased after arrest if they found the device.

If y’all don’t have my book YOU & THE POLICE!, get it.
It’s like a pocket lawyer, and will save you much grief.

Boston, thanks.

I disagree about leaving it alone. Supposedly the cops are your friend. If that was true, asking for him to id himself should be no big deal. Clearly this demonstrates that at least these two cops are not my friend.

I do have that book of yours but haven’t read it yet. I’ll have to prioritize it!

See you in March I hope. :)

Oh dear.
Why do people think like this. Or is it even thinking at all. I think not.
Let’s take a closer look.
George said this:
“Supposedly the cops are your friend.” ”

Where did you ever get that idea?

“If that was true, asking for him to id himself should be no big deal.”

Do you routinely ask *friends* to ID themselves?
Do you routinely ask anyone to ID themselves?
But you do take exception of someone asking you to ID yourself.
I see.

“Clearly this demonstrates that at least these two cops are not my friend.”

Let me ask you something, are you aware of the current world around you?

Is this the very first time you have been made aware of the viciousness of the jackboots?

Don’t forget, this whole thing did a 180 when you challenged the thug at his table after it was all over.

YOU are now on the defense yet you act like you are on the offense.

They will shred you on that one little fact.


(1) Propagandists like to portray cops as harmless folks who are looking out for you.

(2) Cops are reportedly held to a higher standard than the ordinary citizen.

(3) Police are required to id themselves when asked. I confirmed this with Warwick police. Individuals are not, at least not in PA, not when they are on foot and there is no evidence/suspicion of a crime.

Woah! Boston Tea Party!! KICK ASS!!

I have to admit, when I heard your speech at the Freedom Summit last month it radically changed the way I perceive police interactions and ALL interactions with the government for that matter.

I fully believe that in order to ‘live to take care of ourselves and those important to us’ we need to seriously consider the ‘opportunities’ from the ‘tragedies’. As an activist now (slightly over a year) I have learned the HARD WAY that the passion to right the wrongs comes with consequence. I was arrested / convicted of photographing an other gentleman in my company who was video taping his surprise interaction with two border patrol agents eating at a sleazy pizzeria in the ‘land of Yuma AZ’ (native American for ‘the place where dogs defecate then seek to lie down and sleep in it’). My so called ‘counter part’ made 35 seconds of video questioning these two chaps while I hung in the background and snapped photos. At our trial they gave us equal punishment (disorderly conduct fine $280) to which we are in the process of appeal. The travel distance one way to this municipal place of ‘court’ (laughable, sincerely!) over 3.5 hours drive one way.
I was listening to you Boston, and I feel that it is MUCH better to quietly reside into our safe-place than it is to go toe-to-toe with ‘the man’. The only addendum I would offer is one that can’t be avoided. When that is the case, prudence dictates our common sense in a flurry of sordid emotion. YES, you will feel the sting of ‘how can a cop get away with this’, but if you are NOT under arrest; by all means…GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THE HEAT!!!
If you must endure the promptings of a field investigation, GET THE RECORDINGS GOING, get witnesses (in that order) and simply refuse to answer any questions asking the officer…”If I ANSWER you or make any statements, CAN THEY BE USED AGAINST ME in a court of law??” (duh….)
Upon that ‘open realization’ that you are familiar with your rights, make sure you make good mental notes on the arrest for later; if they don’t arrest you say nothing and leave immediately.
The thing I and others I know have learned is that you are NOT an effective parent / citizen / employee / activist if you are under the scrutiny of the law and fighting an up-hill battle to prove the cop is a bad cop; so avoid this at all cost.
True activism in my opinion is an analysis into targeting ‘easy wins’ with signs, campaigns, handing out information-DVD’s etc. and remaining strong and consistent. If the police become involved, that skews all of this to immediate “get away from danger” action instead. Consider them ‘ as being ‘pirates’…or LAND SHARKS…or DEMONS FROM HELL…whatever works butr stay far, far away from them! Then, after you are collected you can build inspiration and attack with evidence, testimony, witnesses and go after the pirates BONDS!!! They all have to be insured and most agencies understand that there is a certain amount of ‘cost of doing business’, and since WE ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS, (the bitch pirate who ran the ‘show’ on my ordeal in Yuma actually called us that during her testimony on the trial) make sure you injure their place of employment accordingly!

Sorry about the rant’… and YES, we should ALL HAVE COPIES of Boston’s book. Trust me, ‘the man’ really doesn’t want you to become privy to what’s in there. Stay Safe!

Live video up-link with a smart phone…

I’m not sure how many of you have these cool mini-computer phones, but we recently (two days ago) set my wife’s ‘crackberry’ up with a QIK.COM account. Most will be pleased at how well / EZ this works.
Here: see for yourself!!

George….if the actions occurred as you described, there we errors in judgement on boths sides, especially in a public establishment…that being said, I would prefer that you do not carry a firearm openly in the township where I live…Lou


For not having my book, you did extremely well!
You’re almost “there” . . . but not quite.

Cops work for the state, and the state is in search of bodies.
Do not talk to cops, ever.
Force them to actually detain by restraint, and they will do so if they’re sure of their RAS.

If you’re already free, you can’t become more free by talking to cops.
You were free after you rightfully declined to show ID.
You won. You should have left it that way.

By going back to him (for any/whatever) reason ran you the risk of becoming less free — as you soon experienced. By asking for his ID, you in effect challenged him (and in front of his colleague). He could not be expected to back down. Especially not a guy like that.

To use an analogy, in sales I’ve learned to SHUT UP once the customer is reaching for his wallet to pay. There’s nothing I can say at that point to help the sale (which has already been made), but something I might say could reverse the sale. It’s happened to me enough times to stick.

Soooooo, once you’re free to go . . . GO. LEAVE. STAY AWAY.


We written but here is how I see it. Civilians who carry “open”, do so for one reason, to be stared at and to be outrageous. You can hide behind the law, protection, carry options, etc., the truth is you like to look the part. Get a carry permit or be prepared to receive the attention you so badly want. Or, take the test and become a cop.

Lou, every ratified PA Constitution since Independence (i.e. 1776, 1790, 1838, 1874, and 1968) has contained not only ‘that the right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned’ but also that ‘the citizens of the commonwealth shall be armed and trained.’ It is not only a right to go about armed but a duty, to maintain the continuity of deterrence against tyranny, and to maintain the ever-vigilant armed body of free men made of the People — following the general proscription that a standing army ought not be kept. The PA Constitution of 1776 even called upon those unwilling to bear arms to pay ‘an equivalent’.

You can stick your constitution straight up your ass, it has nothing to do with me, and anyone that thinks it does needs to be professionally examined.
I was born in Gettysburg.

Correct Don. It has nothing to do with us. It presumably has something to do with the people that swear an oath to uphold it. Ha ha!

Lou, I encourage you to ban or permit whatever you like on your own property and demand the unquestioned right to enforce your property rights from the government.

Errors in judgment on both sides, possibly. But there were definitely violations of the law on only one side.

Boston, you have a good point. Thank you for the advice!

Level-headed, you can read minds, wow! I always wanted to learn how to do that. The reality is 99% of folks are so enclosed in their own little worlds they don’t even notice I’m open carrying.

O, great info, thanks.

Here in NC we have concealed carry permits and open carry with limitations. That being said, most businesses have signs prohibiting firearms or weapons. I would think it is their right to control what is allowed on their property. Although I have been in your neck of the woods many times I have not noticed or thought to look for such signs. Is the situation the same there? Do you know what the diner’s owner thought about the incident?

I have no problems with legal firearms with responsible owners , concealed or open. I am just a curious type. I have carried very rarely, only when having to go to known bad places at known bad times.

And that’s the critical point Jim, good one. What happened to people upholding their oaths of office?

Well, thank you Jen! Didn’t know you had a blog, will check that out.

David, I have yet to see a sign banning guns here, other than in a court building. Open carry is de facto legal under PA law and there are very few restrictions. Big glitzy malls don’t like it but very few actually announce the fact. They handle it on a case-by-case basis it seems.

The restaurant owner is a witness to the events. He was quite friendly with me when I went in the second time. I apologized about the incident happening in his establishment. Other than that, he had no comments on it. I open carried the second time I went in as well and he did not seem upset about it then either.

“Level headed” wrote:
“Civilians who carry “open”, do so for one reason, to be stared at and to be outrageous.”

Sorry, but you’re quite mistaken.
I’ve OCed a lot, as do many of my friends.
You may think OC is “outrageous”, but we do not.

Expressing your RKBA with a CCW is like expressing your First Amd.
right with laryngitis. We will contine to OC until the uninformed and
nervous no longer see it as “outrageous”.

Conversely, it is the unarmed who deserve to be “stared at”.

@Boston T. Party: Expressing your RKBA with a CCW is like expressing your First Amd. right

Since when did the constitution grant rights?


I’m sure you are familiar with the case here in Chicago in which videotape evidence couldn’t put away a cop for his actions. The incident is captured on youtube regarding a huge, drunk, off-duty police officer clearly going behind the bar and assaulting the bartender to the point where she was unconscious, simply because she refused to serve him a drink. Yes, the large 36-year old man beat up a 21-year old girl.

The officer was acquitted, and remains on the force today. Lesson for the public to learn.

Good luck in trying this officer.

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